Question 4: responses continued . . .
Meee-Owww, Ian! So you've finally sunk to this: you're book's bigger than my (non-existent) book. I do, however, thank you for providing me the opening for a plug. I have, in the past, recoiled whenever anyone asked me about doing a book. As a professional dilettante, I've yet to meet the subject that will sustain my interest for the two or three years necessary to invest all of my energies into one. That is, till this roundtable. Thanks to John's inspiration, I'm now shopping around the idea to do an expose on closet bum-fisters in the highest echelons of government and polite society. I hope to call it "Sitting on Their Hands." Wish me luck.
Though I'd prefer you stop grading my papers, I'll also doff my cap to you, for all the left-handed compliments. Over the last several weeks, I've grown accustomed to our predictable ritual. Buttman says something asinine or indefensible. I smack him around for it. Then you smack me around for smacking him around, even if you largely agree with me or he smacked first. Then I smack you back. The only person that's not interested in participating in our little reindeer games, oddly enough, is Jerry — since he'd rather talk about smack than talk smack. Still, when they finally break up our dysfunctional daisy chain, I'll be going through withdrawals worse than anything Jerry's ever experienced. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'll miss you buttheads.
I hesitate to answer any of John's questions, since he so noticeably ducked mine. I was, however, intrigued by one: "Specifically, I would like to a get a better understanding of the source of this guilt — is it totally socially induced?" I hesitate to throw such a quaint archaic notion out there, knowing that Rufus is on deck with a corked bat, but maybe there is an elegantly simple explanation for it all. Maybe there's a God. I hate to shove any Bible down your throats, since in some of your throats, it's already fairly crowded down there, but maybe like our Old Testament friends said, God created us in His image. And maybe we don't always care too much about our image, but maybe God does care about us ruining His image. And maybe He's not too keen on His image being associated with bonking every warm opening in sight, especially not on camera. And maybe He encoded us with an innate sense of guilt, which some people are more successful at ignoring than others. Even hardcases like John obviously have it. For by his own admission, he took a masturbation sabbatical for two years, something I wouldn't recommend during my single days even in the frothiest fervor of puritanical fury. Keep in mind that social stigma is the cornerstone of most civilizations. Without it, we'd feel free to run wild in the streets, rape and pillage, maybe even burn Michael Bolton records. And really, what is social stigma, besides enforcing collectively the shame that we naturally feel as individuals? Maybe God has nothing to do with it. But if He does, it sure would answer a lot of John's questions fast.
Ian Gittler (Q4: #13 of 20)
Whoa.
I'll just go back to John's statement about personal details.
You, unquestionably, are the only one on this panel (possibly save Tricia) who is willing to bare whatever you can mentally access — in seemingly unedited fashion — about the mechanics, emotions and practices of your personal experiences regarding porn, sex and masturbation. That's you, and possibly your career. It doesn't seem unnatural for you at all.
My own reservations about doing that? I'd be lying if I said I fully understood them.
I know I'd have had a better sense of it all if this discussion happened a little further down the road in my life, and there's a much better chance that, having far less self-understanding in my past, I'd probably have been happy to reel off all kinds of personal experiences that most non-porn people would find "outrageous." Back then my honesty would also have attached to it an annoying sense of bravado or macho posturing. You know, I'd have talked about all this reckless shit, with semi-remorse, but also with an eye on making anyone listening jealous, or at least impressed with my sexual derring-do. In a way, talking about masturbation publicly could be the same as publicly masturbating.
You don't come off that way, John.
But at this point in my life, I just don't see how it's in my best interest for me divulge that kind of personal stuff, regardless of any good it might do to further popular thought about this topic.
In a way, it has to do with my fairly recent discovery that, in the name of presenting an identity for myself based on how easy all this sexuality stuff was for me — for years I just knew I was Mr. Sex — well, that in itself just degraded the value of that whole aspect of my life, just sucked the value right out of it. It's only pretty recently that I realized how much better I feel about my life when I treat these aspects of who I am as more valuable.
What's kind of weird is I go into personal stuff about my youth in my book that makes me feel vulnerable and exposed, and it will be around forever. In that context I deemed it necessary. It also felt safer. It also might be part of how I've been able to move forward from there.
Here, in real time, I'm not as convinced it's worth it for me to do that. I don't know for sure, but I know I could feel surer about it before proceeding.
You're right though, it would be great if we were all doing that. John, the thing I find most interesting about your personal revelations — and once more I must say I disagree with you about so much, and see things very differently than you — but the normal stuff you talk about, just the simple language about your feelings with regard to all the "basics." That's the stuff I would be most uncomfortable speaking openly about. It takes a lot more honesty than, you know, bragging about threesomes or orgies or whatever. That probably is about shame.
Shame. Shame, shame. I guess I do have shame. Lots of it. If I want to change the world I'm gonna have to figure out a pretty ingenious way of getting around that one, that's for sure.
I can't say I'll ever be divulging that kind of stuff about myself. If I do, I hope I'll be getting paid more for it.
But it definitely helps that one of us is.
John Stagliano (Q4: #14 of 20)
Ian, thanks for at least explaining yourself, but I'm baffled by your statement that Matt is bigger and tougher. By what standard?
Matt has made me wonder why I'm wasting my time with this discussion. None of you guys are really interested in ideas, and none of you really have any qualifications for this discussion. You are interested in mental masterbation [sic]. Personally, I'm not. I've got better things to do with my time.
Matt Labash (Q4: #15 of 20)
John, if you'd like us to call the school nurse so that she can drain the excess fluids in your pretension gland, we're happy to oblige. While I don't think anybody's going to mistake these for the Lincoln-Douglas debates, in between all the parrying and thrusting, we have managed to grind out a few low-watt riffs on God and guilt and "art" (if you can call Mr. Bolton's music art, and I think Ian decided you can). Meanwhile, you've managed to discuss your transsexual line of videos, the forbidden desire of straight men to have customers enter through the out door, and your valiant struggle with chronic onanism. I have bad news for you, Ideas Boy, nobody's going to confuse you for the Dean of Philosophy at Plato's Academy. But here's an idea for you: buy a dictionary. For somebody so obsessed with masturbation, it's high time you learned how to spell it.
Ian Gittler (Q4: #16 of 20)
I think bigger and tougher in the sense that someone who is comfortable with trash talking, name-calling and condescending will always beat an adversary who only resorts to that kind of thing because he sees no alternative. So, no, I wasn't implying that you couldn't kick Matt's ass, or that you have less important things to say; only that you don't seem driven by the same kind of mean-spiritedness, so why even get caught up in that?
However I don't like you broadsiding me, over and over, John. It just seems wrong. And also, I think it's unrealistic to have expected that this forum would be some kind of oasis in terms of how the world perceives your lifestyle. You have been misquoted and maligned in the press — except in terms of your business model — ever since I've known you, and I'm sure since well before.
Going on the offensive because I express extreme skepticism about the origins of your sexual diversions, your motivations, lifestyle, rationalizations, etc., just seems defensive. I can understand it — you not liking it — but can you educate me, or just accept that that's where I stand, rather than simply writing me off?
In terms of time wasted, I doubt any of us imagined the posting would be so extensive going into this thing, but there it is.
Matt Labash (Q4: #17 of 20)
See, John — and you said Ian wasn't interested in ideas. Who can kick whose ass is an idea — sort of. Maybe next, you guys can discuss whose dad can beat up whose dad. Gentlemen, is it me, or do you too suspect this conversation has run its course?
Tricia Devereaux (Q4: #7 of 20)
I've just sort of been sitting back for the past few days, listening. Thanks for letting me participate, and I really enjoyed being a pseudo-part of your roundtable.
I think we got a pretty good range of opinions. From John to me, Rufus, Ian and Matt; and I never did quite figure out where Jerry was. I think he was trying to say that he didn't really have a strong opinion: just let things be and people can make their own decisions.
Anyway, nice chatting with y'all.
Ian Gittler (Q4: #19 of 20)
Same. Cheers, all!
Rufus Griscom (Q4: #9 of 20)
Well, well, well, quite a love-in to return to. It's become clear that this discussion will not crescendo in a three-way of offline boy love between Matt, Ian and John as I'd hoped. (And you wondered why our contract asked for film rights.) It sounds like everyone is saying goodbyes, and you've surely earned them, but I can't resist adding a few valedictory thoughts:
I'm not sure that porn is best defended, if one chooses to defend it, on the grounds of artistry. Based on my limited sampling in the last couple decades, it would be difficult for a seven billion dollar annual budget to produce less beauty (this is roughly the military budget for coffee makers, which no doubt quicken the pulse of young men with more subtlety). It must be said that I haven't seen John's work, and if he runs with Matt's dolled up sow idea (done delicately, think Babe) I may stand erected, um, corrected.
I think there are two reasons for the low quality of the industry: 1) candlestick polishers don't give a damn about deft jump-cuts, and 2) the rank miasma of social opprobrium that surrounds the industry (which Matt and to a lesser extent Ian have been flatulating throughout this discussion) have been repelling most of the talent that can find compelling job offers in sandalwood-scented environs.
This will change: in the coming decades we will see far more interesting "X-rated" content (coming more from the indie-film side than the porn side — check out The Lifestyle, for instance), though no doubt there is an inverse relationship between artistry and airbag inflation.
Matt, finally we come to the source of all the brotherly love you have been radiating. So we are all made in god's image, and though the hand of god touches all things, you don't see it in a fist up his rectum (it seems to me like god may be the only one who could pull of such a contortion). God has been improving sex by emboldening moral posturers to spread guilt for millennia, so we shouldn't be surprised to see Matt carrying out His will.
This brings us to shame: something I do thank god for. As we say in our mission statement, we don't want to get rid of taboos, we just want to gnaw on them like squeaky dog toys. I think most men feel quite a bit of guilt about their predatory sexual instincts and the poor reception those instincts often receive in a society in which women are empowered (by comparison with others). Porn is what they are left with. Of course, the shame recedes, and the predatory instincts become better received by women as they mature, and the process is exquisite.
Thank all of you for your contributions, quite a set of characters you are. Take care.
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To participate in the virtual roundtable discussion yourself, visit "Men, Smut & Shame" in the VoiceBox folder of NerveCenter Message Boards.
