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March 12, 2008
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Have a question? Email erin@nerve.com. Letters may be edited for length, content and clarity.
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I have somehow found myself in a relationship with a selectively religious man. He won't have sex till marriage. I really like him, so what should I do? How can convince him to marry me? — Good God
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Dear Good God,
I'm not particularly Jesusy, though I have had ecclesiastical experiences while listening to Stranglehold by Ted Nugent while stoned and eating German chocolate brownies.
You say "selectively religious" like it's this big problem. I think it shows he's intelligent, open-minded, and capable of sophisticated reason. You know who's really good at being one-noted, Good God? Dolts and Nazis. We're all hypocrites to some extent, just about different things. It's only when someone disagrees with us (how dare they!) that we start getting uptight. Otherwise it's inconsequential and endearing.
Number one on the agenda — way above convincing this guy to marry you — is making sure you can both show respect for and exhibit tolerance toward his beliefs. Genuine tolerance. Eye rolling, teeth sucking, and heavy sighing coupled with, "No really, it's fine," just won't do it.
Have you talked about how you'll observe the holidays, what you'll tell your families, and what you'd do in the event of an unplanned pregnancy? What if one or both of you decides to change your religion? Heavy stuff, yeah, but you need to get into it before you start talking marriage licenses and picking out a preacher. Speaking of, is it going to be Vegas Elvis or an old-school man of the cloth performing the ceremony?
With all this yapping, who has time for sexing? Don't worry. For a lot of folks the 'no sex before marriage' rule is extremely bendy. It could mean nearly everything is fair game — even oral. Then again, it could mean no Frenching. I'd say make the absolute most of what he'll let you do. Give the relationship a spoken or unspoken time limit after which you'll make a decision to end it or move forward. Above all, don't rush into something as huge as marriage just because you're horny and impatient.
| Dear Miss Information, My boyfriend found a masseuse through the online classifieds. She wanted to exchange professional services with someone who could help her with a business plan. I told him I wasn't comfortable with this — he has a history of being deceitful. He's never cheated on me while we were together, but he did some bad stuff while we were taking time apart. It's been a major source of tension between us — mostly because I had to discover the bad behavior for myself. He will tolerate absolutely no reference to any of these past incidents, and if I do mention them at all, he accuses me of not being able to move on. I shared my concerns about the masseuse with him, and he got very resentful, but agreed to drop the idea. But the other day, he sent me a note from his phone saying he was with the masseuse. I tried talking to him about it again — totally calm, no accusations, just telling him about my discomfort — only to have him blow up. If he wants a massage he can easily afford to go to any one of the three or four places he has frequented in the past — operations that have actual storefronts vs. being run out of a private home. I think he's playing power games, but I'm at a loss what to do. — Rubbed Wrong |
Dear Rubbed Wrong,
Separating out penis-pill spam from genuine penis-related inquiries is about 50% of my job. The other 50% involves inference. Coming to a conclusion when you're only getting half the story from half the parties involved. Here's what I'm going to infer about your behavior. Tell me if you think I'm wrong:
You had (and still have) a conflict-heavy relationship, with different ideas about what constitutes acceptable behavior during your time apart. For future reference, time apart means just that. The more rules you lay down, the more you share about each other's sexual escapades, the more you get into each other's business, the more you defeat the purpose of why you're taking time apart in the first place. The idea is to back off from the drama and responsibility and be your own custodian. You can't do that when you're grilling each other about whom you had over last night and he's still stopping by to give your cat her suppository.
With that in mind, this massage deal — I don't like the way this sounds. Whether or not you were too hard on him in the past (and who knows), he wants to enter into a situation that, for any normal monogamous couple, would require a great deal of trust. Furthermore, it sounds like he's not willing to make sacrifices for the sake of the relationship and/or alter his behavior. If this relationship is going to go anywhere, that's a big problem. Maybe he feels like he's always under the gun and this is where he wants to draw the line in the sand. Maybe he's a big old skeezebucket.
You can't dictate his behavior. You can decide whether this is a relationship-ender or if you can live with some form of concession — say, she gives you guys couples massages or he calls you to check in before and after. There's no way to guarantee he won't just bang her and then call you when it's over. If someone really wants to, they're going to find a way to cheat. What you need to get at is how realistic the possibility is based on the behavior you've observed.
Is this guy going for an innocent rubdown or is this relationship headed for an unhappy ending? Readers, what do you think?
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©2008 Erin Bradley and Nerve.com
Commentarium (40 Comments)
First of all, all professional massage therapists I dealt with got extremely offended if they were called "masseuse". Does she have a license? If she is writing a business plan, she obviously wants to open up a practice. Here, in British Columbia, you have to go to school for 4 years to be able to give professional massages. If she was certified, I would not worry a bit.
However if the massage therapist in question is not offended by being called "masseuse", I would start to worry!
sounds like the fact that he is probably looking for a massage with happy ending will lead to the relationship having an unhappy ending!
Dear Rubbed Wrong,
Offer to go with him.Tell him that you think it would be exciting to go and watch him get his massage. If he says no to THAT then he is lying in my book. NOTE: In HIS defense, if,when you two were having time "apart" and you were not officially "dating" or "together", the what he did,bad or whatever,is non of your business as long as it is not putting your physical safety at risk.
dirtwood
I've never liked the "wait 'til marriage before having sex" concept, because, y'know, 50% of marriages don't work out, and wouldn't it be nice to know if you're going to be sexually compatible before getting into it? Like if he wants missionary all the time, and you can't imagine not using that trapeze you installed above the bed. It also makes you want to rush to get married before evaluating other important aspects. But if you need sex to "convince" someone to marry you, you probably shouldn't be trying.
Good God,
You wrote "I really like him" and "How can I get him to marry me?"
Are you 12 yrs old?
If you can't respect the mans religious beliefs then just pack it up now. You sound about as deep as a teaspoon or just so deperate that you are really sad.
dirtwood
Good God, I'm sure this will come across as being very un-PC, but are you sure that your boyfriend is straight? You say he's "selectively religious". Based on the people that I know selectively religious men use their selectivity to skip the no sex before marriage constraint rather than embrace it. This sounds like someone who is scared of having sex with a woman. What sexual interactions do you have? Does he go down on you? Does he seem to get turned on by women?
Rubbed Wrong's guy is an egotistical, controlling asshole. Show him to the dumpster. If the relationship has any future at all, both of you have to get to a place where nothing's off limits for discussion. He complains that you're not able to get over/past it? Well guess what, Mr. Prick, she's entitled to need a little comfort and reassurance now and then, even if it reminds you just a little bit of what a selfish tool you've been to her in the past. You deserve better from a relationship, RW, and you'll be better off without him!
"My boyfriend found a masseuse through the online classifieds."
Chances are he was looking for more than a massage in the online classifieds. At some point you have to trust your instincts. If you think he can't be trusted, it's time to move on.
I'm open to AB's point: Good God, I'm sure this will come across as being very un-PC, but are you sure that your boyfriend is straight?
If you're selectively religious, how do you decide exactly what you do and don't do? No sex until marriage is a big important sacrifice to make for a God you (in all likelihood) don't really believe in (how else do we rationally justify such selectivity?). If you're willing to accept no sex before marriage, while rejecting a lot of other religious commandments, it seems to me more likely than not that religion is an excuse, not a reason, and that you're therefore either scared of or disinterested in sex. Given that, do you really want to be with this guy?
But as dirtwood said, "How can I get him to marry me?" - really? REALLY? Come on. Are you ready to be married in the first place?
Shady or not, it really doesn't matter. LW shouldn't be with this guy. It sucks to live your life not knowing if you can trust someone. Choices, darling. It's all up to her.
"He's never cheated on me while we were together, but he did some bad stuff while we were taking time apart." If he never cheated while you were together, THEN HE NEVER CHEATED, PERIOD.
And if this guy can't give up a massage from one particular masseuse to please his (obviously insanely insecure) girlfriend, then he's an asshole.
She's a neurotic, controlling bitch, he's a selfish, uncaring asshole. They shouldn't break up. They should stay together to protect the rest of us singles from their ridiculous dating habits.
She writes: "I shared my concerns about the masseuse with him, and he got very resentful, but agreed to drop the idea. But the other day, he sent me a note from his phone saying he was with the masseuse."
The relationship doesn't have much solid ground to begin with--time off, unnecessary details from that time and subsequent (added?) resentment, and apparent power play from both sides.
HOWEVER, his agreement to drop it and then sending her a note that he was at the masseuse just shows that he's more of a penis pill than she is a weak sister.
I don't see long term potential here, and she might want to look into what she defines as a viable relationship before getting into the next one ... during her permanent time off from this guy!!
The fact that receiving a professional massage from a woman in her home would, "for any normal monogamous couple [. . .] require a great deal of trust" highlights the lingering, culturally common suspicion that massage therapists are likely to be prostitutes. At a time when massage schools are ubiquitous, working from home can give a newly-minted massage therapist a financial edge, but at the expense of having to hustle (forgive the term) to drum up business without the benefit of a chain-spa-sized marketing budget.
My life-partner of over ten years has been a massage therapist for over twenty years. Her office is in our home. Her overhead expenses are a tax write-off, she chooses her clients, sets her own hours and she keeps every penny she earns (after taxes). Practicing out of one's home helps massage therapists keep expenses down, earnings up, and stay in control of who they work on. Massage industry magazines recommend that cash-strapped, newly minted massage therapists barter for business planning and web site development services to launch their business and build their client base. After all, they are not salaried employees - they only get paid when they work.
This woman's trust issues and dissatisfaction about their conflicting interpretations of "time-off" sound pretty pervasive. It can be hard to tell if he's truly not willing to make concessions, or if he believes he's screwed no matter what he does and feels there's no longer a point in trying. Either way, please don't take it out on the self-employed massage therapist.
Well, is she a "masseuse" or a massage therapist? Those of us who took thousands of hours of training in order to have a skill that helps us pay the bills while helping people get rid of muscular pain would like the public apprehension of the nature of our work to be a little clearer. If the first thing you think of when you hear the word "massage" is sex, you have some more research to do.
The possibility exists that he's involved in a trade situation with a practitioner in much the same way he might trade services with an accountant who sees him at her house rather than at H&R Block. Check into it before you check your sanity at the door.
he's going to screw the massager ( i can't spell massuse) and she's going to down play it like she has all his other assholisms. for good god's sake run!
Rubbed wrong - If you rubbed him the right way, he wouldn't be looking elsewhere for a masseuse. Get to it.
He's cheating....period
Avoid all religious people!
Re: Rubbed Wrong
Dear Erin- This relationship is so headed for an unhappy ending, if they keep on this track. Pahleez, get a therapist stat, these people need communication. Cheaters have room to cheat in their relationships when there are dark hidden spaces to hide them in. It is possible to move past drama, with forgiveness, completion and commitment to a new, healthy partnership. If he is not on board, dump the dude ~Sister who has seen it before
Forget this guy! He should respect your discomfort no matter what. If you did something in the past to make him feel uncomfortable, he needs to learn to deal with it and move on rather than just "getting back at you" or whatever possible explanation he could have for insisting on this masseuse thing. Whether or not he's banging her is not the problem. The problem is that he has such disregard for your feelings right now. I have a feeling that it will be power games like this for the whole ride...
Gotta agree w/ TR on 3/12. I would quote it and put QFT after, but that takes a lot of space.
I would also like to say:
"but he did some bad stuff while we were taking time apart"
and
"I had to discover the bad behavior for myself"
strike me as someone trying to be someone else's mommy.
"Bad stuff?" WTF? Did he beat up a nun or something? I mean, if he did stuff you find truly BAD (like hurting kids, raping someone, etc), then dump him. If by "bad" you mean, "shit I wish he hadn't done because it hurt my feelings," well fuck, dump him or let it GO.
Rubbed Wrong:
Erin's response was spot on: RW is just sharing her side of a long rollercoaster relationship. A few sentences doesn't tell me nearly enough to comment responsibly. If anything, it sounds like she just some validation for her inner-chaos. And I don't think it'll help. But maybe she just wants a little attention?
Anyway, I don't like the sound of either of'em. If she's comfortable calling her boyfriend 'deceitful' and basing it on so-called 'bad' behaviour when they were broken up, then possibly the relationship is in more trouble than she'd care to admit. Once trust goes out of a relationship, so does respect and (often) the ability to have earth-shattering orgasms.. I second the reader who said she's obviously not rubbing him *right*.. lol.. That said, the guy sounds like a creep. Who 'drops an issue' and then calls from the place the next day. That's a slap in the face. Or maybe they both deserve each other?
Good God:
It all sounded like an innocent question until she piped about "getting him" to marry her. Hmm. What happened to love, mutual feelings and wanting to spend your life with someone?
"Getting" anyone to marry you sounds like you're being a manipulative brat, surely? I mean, like what's GG gonna do next: plead immaculate conception as a pretext to a proposal?? Unearth the hidden softcore gospels? Get therapy????
"Is this guy going for an innocent rubdown ...?"
In the guy's mind, there's no such thing as an "innocent rubdown". The guy always wants to nail the masseuse ... always.
Short of doing her, he may settle for just getting a "happy ending", but he really wants "full service" ... again, always.
And no, he'd never fess up to girlfriend.
Okay...the guy agreed not to do something he wanted to do, unwillingly...and then did it anyway and told her. Sounds to me that the guy has drawn a line in the sand. The girl is going to have to accept it, or end the relationship...he wants his freedom within the relationship to be on his terms, not hers, and seemingly not 'theirs'.
Maybe she ought to loosen up...maybe he deserves to be dumped, it's hard to tell without knowing more. But it looks to me as though the situation is not going to end up with a satisfactory compromise.
On your recent masseuse letter, nobody needs tostay in a relationship with these tensions. Innocent or guilty this guy doesn't respect her feelings. She should get out and the sooner the better.
"Time apart" is never that cleanly/clearly defined. Any couple who takes a break and gets back together has a right to know what the other has been up to, especially if they are in an active monogamous relationship and not using condoms. She obviously satisfies something for him otherwise they wouldn
I can understand all the responses about what is and is not a licensed and whatnot massage therapist but REALLY, people, this is not about you. There's a Narcissists' Anonymous quality to any board like this, but still...
More to the point is this: she has concerns about his reliability and he responds with anger. Now either she's been pestering him for months with neurotic anxiety scenarios, in which case she and possibly they should get therapy, at the end of which the relationship will probably end, OR he's a cheating bastard and a bully and she should dump him ASAP and stop being such a victim, already.
Not knowing the people it's impossible to see which is true -- especially since this is all from her side of things. Either way, the relationship is on the skids, and the best thing she can do is leave, and then get therapy to sort it out -- I know, who can afford all this therapy? She'll sort it out anyway, but a good therapist can save you years of brooding and misery.
What does he smell like after an appointment?
If Rubbed Wrong's boyfriend blows up at her when she raises her concerns in a calm tone, she should get out of the relationship. He wouldn't be playing those power games without something to hide.
Flee. Now.
I agree with Miss Information regarding the time apart. She needs to drop all discussion of that and move on. However, this guy saying he will "drop" the idea of the masseuse and then calling her from there just sounds really sketchy to me.
He doesn't sound trustworthy. I'd dump him.
even if he's not cheating, if a massage is more important to him than your peace of mind, that gives you a good deal of information about his priorities.
Now you say something