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April 29, 2012
Miss Information
Am I too old to fall head-over-heels for someone anymore?
by Cait Robinson
Have a question for Miss Information? Email missinfo@nerve.com.
Dear Miss Information,
I recently moved to a new state, which always make it difficult to find friends or start a potential relationship. On a weekly basis, I've been eating alone and reading a book at this bar. (I'm shy, which already men have very little patience for.)
The waiter there approached me and we became sort of friends, since I am a regular. Over the past few months, my attraction to him has gotten stronger, and the sexual tension is undeniable — when he touches me I'm in a surreal bliss.
He's pretty much my opposite — extroverted, attractive, and white. I feel terrible for admitting this, but my hesitation in going for it has been about his race. It's not that I feel that he's inferior or anything like that. I just don't want to be someone's experimental thrill. It's especially difficult for me to believe he's dated a black woman before, based on where I am. He's never been rude and he's always been kind, but the fact that he's handsome and could probably date a lot of women makes me insecure about his intentions.
I'm sort of disgusted with myself for feeling this way, and I want to trust him (and, uh, have sex with him) but I am so scared of being used — I honestly don't think I could take it. I'm also tired of being such a coward. What should I do?
— White + Black = Gray Area
Dear Gray Area,
First let's clear up some misconceptions about service workers. (This is a subject with which I am intimately acquainted, as a writer.) You distrust this waiter because he is "extroverted, attractive," and "...could probably date a lot of women." All valid concerns. Sure, in food service, being cute helps. So does being charming. If you're blessed with being both cute and charming, your shifts end with you rolling around on a pile of $1 bills on the shitty carpeting of your dim apartment.
But there is a limit to how cute and charming someone will be if they're just in it for the dollars. He's not obligated to stick around your table after you order to discuss the book you're reading. Nor is he obligated to "forget" to charge you for that iced tea you ordered. There's a line between "professionally cute" and "actually interested," and if he's crossed that line, you should have faith in the attraction.
Now that's out of the way, who said you'd be his "experimental thrill?" Maybe he exclusively dates black women. Maybe he dates people he likes, regardless of race. Or — shocking! — maybe he's into you because he finds you attractive and charming in your own "opposite of him" way.
If the sexual tension is that palpable, go for it. Ask him out. You'll never know if he's tokenizing you unless you find out whether he's tokenizing you. More to the point, though, it sounds like you live in a place where race is still a big issue. If you're nervous about being seen with him, welcome to the "ugh, stop staring" club. This club is far bigger than you would expect: girls dating girls; boys dating boys; anyone dating older, younger, or your-age-who-looks-younger; anyone dating someone with a mohawk. The list goes on. Most of us have been in this club at one point or another. If the relationship is good, fuck the haters; the rest of us have your back.
Dear Miss Information,
There was a time when I would fall in love at first sight, and it worked. And so I had a few long-term relationships. I would meet someone and magically fall in love and they loved me back and everything was good. But that was in my twenties. I'm thirty-two now, and I haven't had a real boyfriend in over six years.
I am very open-minded and have dated all sorts of guys. But alas, most of the time, after that initial conversation, there's no spark, or very little. I've also tried going out with "real men" — usually older, gentlemanly guys who seemed ready to settle down. But I never feel anything for them and I always feel like running away at the first sign of possessiveness or boredom. I don't know why.
I've fallen for two guys in the last couple of years who were quite a bit younger than me, and neither of them wanted things to become "serious." One said he didn't want to be in a long-distance relationship. (He then found a girlfriend who was like a carbon copy of me, and lived in my city. That really hurt.) The other, I'm still seeing on very casual terms, but he says he doesn't have time for me and that he doesn't know what he wants anyway. I like having sex with him, but the relationship is growing colder and colder. He doesn't pay much attention to me, and it makes me sad, so I think the right thing to do would be break up and make room for someone new.
One small detail is that in the last few years, I've moved back and forth between several cities in Europe. I'm aware that this instability isn't exactly conducive to establishing a solid relationship. But I'm now relocating to my home country, where I'm planning to grow a root or two — and where I also feel more loved and contained by friends from the same background and culture.
I did use to love my freedom (a.k.a. instability), but I now feel really sad and tired of always doing everything by myself. The question remains: how is it possible that in all these years of so much dating and a handful of super-short relationships, none of these stories has progressed into a partnership? It was so easy before...
— Abracadabra
Dear Abracadabra,
Of course whirlwind romances were easier a decade ago: sparks fly all over the place when your responsibilities are minimal and your parents still pay your car insurance. Out of curiosity, how did these whirlwinds end? Were they stable and rewarding all the way through? Or did they qualify as "learning experiences," the kind that left you on a misbegotten self-discovery trip to Thailand? If your relationship history follows most twentysomethings, my money is on the latter. Nothing's wrong with that. But if you're pining for a period of your life in the past, you should try to remember the bad parts, too. Partnerships may have been easier to form, but their success rate in the long run wasn't necessarily higher.
As we age, we learn how to avoid old pitfalls; this is good. But we also get judgmental and set in our ways, which is less good. The key is to avoid the old pitfalls while staying open to new experiences. It sounds like you're open to new experiences, but are accepting partners who aren't doing quite the same bang-up job. Why bother with someone who won't bend to meet you halfway?
Oh, spoiler. I'm going to answer my own rhetorical question: these dudes don't sound into you. Though they may tell you they're "busy" or "working" or "at the car-insurance store," it's just a front for "I'm prioritizing hanging out with you somewhere below 'eating a sandwich in my underwear.'" This isn't a fault of yours. Nor is it a fault of aging. It's a sign they're not the right people for you. Move on.
Getting older doesn't necessarily mean giving up on some magic. It just means being more selective about whom you spend the magic on. Neither of the guys you just described sound like they are willing participants in a whirlwind romance. If a whirlwind is what you seek, you'll find one. You may have changed since you were in your twenties, but that doesn't mean your ability to fall for someone is gone.
Want a whirlwind romance? An erotic tornado? A cyclone of the heart? Nerve Dating is your meteorological hookup.
Commentarium (45 Comments)
Seriously- "sounds like you live in a place where race is still a big deal?" Where exactly in this world is race not a big deal? This statement, and the whole response to lw1 trivializes race and its significance in all our lives. Miss I needs to acknowledge her own white privilege before she ever attempts to respond to a similar letter.
That's not how it read to me. There are some places where interracial relationships are no big deal, mostly in major cities and less so in the southern US. That's not to say that race has no significance in our lives, just that you're not going to wake up to a cross burning on your doorstep for dating outside your race in most parts of North America.
Yeah, I was reading some white privilege and trivializing in that response too (I am white), and I wouldn't normally expect that from Cait. People with mohawks do not equal black people in US culture, and yeah race is "still a big deal" um, EVERYWHERE. I know Cait doesn't respond on the comment board very often, but I'd like to see a follow up to that answer, if only so I don't lose my faith entirely...
I don't think that Cait's race should disqualify from discussing the topic, but I do wish that her answer was a little less kumbaya. I'm from a major city, and apart from a few stints away, traveling or going to school, I've lived there all of my life. Backwater towns and isolated locations don't have a monopoly on bigotry or racism; it may be expressed differently but you'll find it everywhere you go. I read this today http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/relationship-issues/love-and-race-3 from Marie Claire, and although the feature is still problematic in some ways, it would hardly be true to say that these women's experiences only happened because of their location, or that their fears were/are unfounded.
Ultimately, I think the OP will just have to decide for herself whether the possible disillusionment is worth the risk. If there are ways to get to know him better before getting into anything more romantic, maybe it would be worth it to go for that. Learn more about him, and don't be afraid to share things about yourself, either. I'm sure it's hard to play it cool with someone you feel so attracted to, but getting to know him better in a friendly way might help you make a more informed decision about whether to make a move (or not).
- If you're not black then you can't really know what you're talking about
- If you're not a woman then you can't really know what you're talking about
- If you don't have children then you can't really know what you're talking about
- If you're not gay then you can't really know what you're talking about
Whenever I hear someone say something similar I realise ´they're the one with the lack not me.
This is a wonderful way to never ever have to acknowledge a differing opinion so that we all remain ignorant.....
yeah, i stopped short at the "big deal" part. as someone studying race and politics, i responded similarly to G. but after switching to a more charitable reading of her otherwise sound advice, i figured cait was trying to keep consistent with the jokey tone of her writing. hopefully she understands that, uh, race is a big deal.
I'm all for criticism when it's deserved, and I've called out Cait before when I disagree with her. But the accusations of "white privilege" here are a total circle-jerk, and totally undeserved. This may come as a newsflash for a few of you, but it doesn't actually, like, HELP black people when you call out a white columnist for not phrasing her comments in some ideal, bombproof, perpetually apologetic manner. It doesn't give them jobs, or get rid of the nervous stares on the subway, or get cops to stop pulling them over for driving nice cars. It's just another version of the same pathetic, suicidal behavior that has so often crippled the Left. It accomplishes nothing.
(How dare she posit an alliance between people perceived as "outsiders" by the mainstream, and suggest that they have a fund of common experience that can help them in supporting one another? How dare she imply that the experience of being black isn't a singular, mystical, unknowable state which white people can't possibly ever understand? Above all, how dare she not apologize for having been born?)
So, ye invokers of "white privilege" and Noble White Defenders of the Black Experience (heavy lies the white, upper-middle-class burden!), don't fool yourself into thinking that your self-righteous "calling out" improves race relations and the state of American discourse on race. If anything, it does the opposite. To be blunt, anyone who knows anything about race knows that the real work gets done when people like you shut the fuck up.
I knew a post like this would come up at some point. You gotta think of it as Cait has the "privilege" of not having to worry about if a white guy will go out with her because of her race. In that sense, I can see where the first post is coming from. However, I do think that it's silly for anyone to want Cait to essentially say "Now, I'm white so take my advice with a grain of salt."
She's not making a huge deal of the situation because lw1 is just asking if she should go for it. The whole race thing is just kinda clouding the letter writer's mind at this point. I think the advice is sound - ASK THE QUESTION cause all he can say is yes or no. Now if they get on the date and the guy starts telling her which character on House of Payne or Meet the Browns she reminds him of the most, then get the fuck out of there.
the first place you live is in your own head. the next place you live is in the world amongst other people.
so yes.....it "sounds like you live in a place where race is still a big deal?" is a fair statement. especially if cait is talking about an interracial relationship. not some of the wider, entrenched problems of race in this country. many people can deal with being in an interracial relationship just fine despite living in the "wider, entrenched problem" and if this girl cant deal i think she need to look inward, not outward.
frankly i think that a lot of black women maintain/adopt racist attitudes towards dating instead of liberating themselves. girl is making a pretty big assumption that i don't think is fair in this day in age.
btw....i am the daughter of a jew and haitian and currently in a relationship with a white man and i have wondered how much the color if my skin has played into which men do (and don't) want to date me. but i'm sorry this girl needs to enjoy what she has. all will reveal itself in time if she takes it slow. as with everything.
For whatever it's worth, I live in San Fran and have had multiple black female friends tell me that in San Francisco race isn't a big deal when it comes to dating, and how nice that is, etc.
I've experienced the same thing, although like Cait I'm a white female. I've been on plenty of dates with all races and the only two relationships I've had in the past 5 years have been with non-white men, and I've spent very little time being conscious of that fact.
I'm white. I live in the Northeast (CT). I've dated white, Hispanic, Asian, & black women. I've never noticed anyone treating us oddly, and my dates have never complained that someone was treating us oddly. I don't think interracial dating is a big deal, depending upon where you live.
And if someone of a different race will/won't date you, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with negative racial attitudes. I typically am not that physically attracted to most black women, even when I like them just fine as friends. Whether that's my innate tastes, the programming of popular culture, etc, who knows, who cares? Whatever race you are, however attractive you are, find someone that wants to date you, and don't worry about the rest, or the whys and why nots.
in any relationship you have to realize that while you may be perfect one-on-one, your friends, family and community are irrefutable parts of your life. And these parts can lead to greater fun and understanding and community, and hopefully will; but there are situations where they can and do create tensions. In ALL walks of life. The key is to understand and walk though them together.
@AAC-
I do not see anyone in this thread saying that because Cait is white, she can't answer LW1's question. It seems that you simply are not aware of the the definition of "white privilege." Everyone who is white has it. That doesn't mean they are bad or ignorant or stupid. But it would make them ignorant if they didn't acknowledge it, learn about it, and work with it in the most constructive way they can. Acknowledging one's white privilege (which is constructive) is MILES away from white guilt (which is destructive). No, calling out an advice columnists response that seems somewhat ignorant of white privilege is not going to change the world. But talking about white privilege in general is important, and if people did it more, and acknowledged it more, that would mark an improvement in the American discourse on race relations. As for being a "noble white defender of the black experience," it is a very, very sad truth that when I talk about what's wrong with race relations, often more people listen to me than if I were black, because they can't just dismiss me as an "angry black person." That's part of my privilege. It's why white people as well as minorities need to talk about race. Its why men as well as women need to talk about rape. Its why straight people as well as gay people need to talk about marriage equality. When I was in college, I sat in an American history class and listened to a girl ask the question "So like why do we still have the NAACP? Cause like, black people are equal now." But hey, maybe I should have just shut the fuck up after hearing that. That would have gotten some Real Work done.
"'When I was in college, I sat in an American history class and listened to a girl ask the question "So like why do we still have the NAACP? Cause like, black people are equal now.'"
The problem is you equating a statement like that to Caitlin's (which I do think was speaking to a very specific context). The problem is you dismissing the experience of a number of people above you, including a half-black woman, in order to make your own point. You didn't invent this idea of "white privilege," college professors did. And most of us have heard of it. That doesn't mean that it needs to be mentioned by name every place and time that matters of race come up. Cait was giving advice to a black woman who wanted to ask out a white guy. It was a pretty specific scenario. I doubt the black women would have written Cait if she didn't want her advice. In that sense, you're actually being kind of paternalistic (maternalistic?)
I in no way shape or form equated Cait's advice with the statement made in my anecdote. Obviously I did not invent the idea of white privilege, but I don't see what that fact has to do with...anything. And I'm not dismissing anyone's experience, everyone's experience is valid. But one experience (my anecdote included) also does not "prove" anything. What's tokenizing is when you expect a single minority person (in this case, the half black woman above) to speak for the experience of her entire group. If one black person says its not problematic, I should automatically accept it as so? That's not how it works, and it's offensive to her to think it does.
so there is no way to qualify the importance of race? where I live, a very large % of the population are mixed race couples (plus a who parade worth of same sex couples) and no one really notices. that isn't to say I live in a racial utopia, but it's pretty clear what Cait intended here and being a nitpicker like this just makes you sound like a twit.
I think it's important to note that it's the actual letter-writer who brought up location as a context for her dating this man, not Miss Info.
I highly doubt that Miss Info thinks that race is not a big deal in general. It's just a fact that dating outside one's race is a bigger issue in some areas than others. I've dated outside my race quite a bit, and have also lived in multiple places so I feel I can say that with conviction.
It's also true that this is a complex subject, but it's not to the letter writer's benefit for MI to get into all the politics of the situation, nor could she do so in this MI format. Given that, I think her response was fine.
I'd like to say something here to AAC: I've read comments of yours on here before and I see that you're a good writer and clearly a smart person. I feel that the valid points you make are often obscured because you make them in many times in a haze of anger that is off-putting. I do think you could reach more people with some of your very valid points if you could cut down on the angry, and sometimes belittling, tone you take. Just a suggestion, and of course you'll do whatever you feel best. I only mention it because when someone takes the time you do to write something I'm assuming they're trying to sway opinions with their words.
Since we're moving on from the original comment...I actually like the passion of AAC's comments. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't, but they always interest me!
@ KH: Sorry but I agree with LT. You can have passion without insulting people. The last line of AAC's above post is so bombastic, and insultingly so, that I do think it very likely that it alienated people who might otherwise agree with the content of what he/she is saying (me, for one.)
Passion is good. Passion coupled with over-the-top anger/insults directed at those of a different opinion doesn't usually changed anyone's mind.
And kudos to you LT for making a saying what you did in a mature way. Nice to see on here.
Sorry, last line should read "kudos to you LT for saying what you did in a mature way."
Huh, I didn't expect to be the subject of discussion here. Well, briefly: yes, I realize that sometimes I'm more polemical than I should be. In real life I'm a pretty laid-back person and usually have little trouble finding common ground with people...partly because in real life you get cues affirming that you're dealing with human beings, not the smug douches so many people on the Internet turn themselves into.
On the other hand, comments like the OP's make me genuinely furious. Our world is completely fucked up right now, and it's people like that who are largely responsible -- people who think they're doing good, and shroud themselves in a cloak of righteousness, but are really just serving their own egos and destructive impulses. And this kind of purer-than-thou crap is eviscerating the Left from within...not that it's anything new, since we've been committing suicide like lemmings (or the urban myth version thereof) for the past 100 years, dutifully living up to the Right's worst caricatures of us whenever we start to make any real progress.
Harping on "white privilege" and the like is a useless, meritless proposition. It's inherently negative, because it trades on guilt rather than compassion. It doesn't build, it doesn't help, it doesn't enlighten, it doesn't bring more love into the world. It's an accusation born of the desire to claim a moral authority that, in most cases, the speaker simply hasn't earned. (And if it were really so different from "white guilt", then it wouldn't be invoked so often as a bludgeon in debates.)
Rereading Cait's comments, I honestly don't think the OP's criticism is fair, just, or sincere. But the OP's post isn't about building bridges or raising consciousness, it's about seizing upon a casually-phrased observation as a "Gotcha!" moment. It's a means of feeling smugly superior, of basking in a masturbatory self-righteousness which IMHO is one of the most toxic impulses found in human beings.
(If you disagree: why didn't the OP just write "Well, race is arguably a big deal everywhere, but I know what Cait means"? Problem solved -- except that it takes away a golden opportunity to be a smug asshole, of course.)
People like that ARE the problem, no matter what ideology they think they're serving. They get off on the grandstanding, but in my experience, they generally lack the compassion or humility to actually accomplish anything that would make the world better...because to do that, you have to be willing to get your hands dirty, and dive headlong into the morally ambiguous quagmire that is real life. It's a lot easier to sit safely behind one's keyboard, mesmerized by the purity of one's own ideology -- and, by extension, oneself.
BTW, @LT, I appreciate your thoughtful post. It's very well-said, and I'll take it to heart.
As an aside: speaking candidly, I'm often moved to post when I'm enraged by a comment I perceive as unjust, especially when it reads as smug or passive-aggressive. But of course, the whole point of passive aggression is to elicit rage in the recipient. So it's partly my responsibility (if there's any truth to my observation, that is) to resist the urge to let my buttons get pushed, so to speak.
AAC, I get the feeling that if we were to meet in person, we wouldn't disagree on much at all. But the problem with arguing on the internet is that it's pretty damn difficult to get a sense of anyone's background, whether they're just "grandstanding" when they talk about privilege or whether they have actually gotten their hands dirty with ambiguities, of which there are a countless number. You really just can't tell from a few hundred-word comments. And I think it at least somewhat important to remember that. Or probably not that important, but hey, we all get sucked into "duty calls, someone is WRONG on the INTERNET" syndrome, once in awhile, we may as well do it right.
@AC I don't think that I am trying to speak for my entire group. What I do know is that my life's experience plays into how I view race and I believe that I see it in a fairly healthy way. Being able and willing to date outside your race is, I believe, emblematic of your social health vis-a-vis race.
Nobody should accept my view because I'm mixed (just as I am not accepting that black woman's as "right" or "good" just because she is black) but I do think its valid. I'm just very very tired of living in a world where no one (especially on the left) is willing to make a qualitative statement about anyone else's world view. Especially about race if that person speaking is a person of color.
My world view: White people should be able to make qualified statement about the life experiences of black people as it pertains to their race. And vice-versa.
BTW I think this whole thread is really great. Nice to see some insightful, well written (and largely civil) social commentary.
"If you're nervous about being seen with him, welcome to the "ugh, stop staring" club. This club is far bigger than you would expect: girls dating girls; boys dating boys; anyone dating older, younger, or your-age-who-looks-younger; anyone dating someone with a mohawk. The list goes on. Most of us have been in this club at one point or another."
To be fair, that line gave me pause too - especially the mohawk bit. That's a hairstyle you can change as soon as you get tired of the negative attention - it's nothing like race or sexual orientation. Also dating someone with a mohawk has never been illegal in this country, nor has anyone ever been lynched or attacked for dating anyone with a mohawk that I know of. So no, "most of us" have not been in the "ugh stop staring" club. And there are parts of the country (parts in which I've lived and seen it first hand) where interracial dating is still strongly frowned upon, and gay dating can get you shunned or beaten up. I don't think Miss Info is racist or a bad person, but the comment is belittling to many people's real experiences.
I agree with the commenters who say that people can be overly sensitive and PC, and that's not good. But I completely disagree that STOPPING talking about race in this country - or acting as though white, straight privilege doesn't exist anymore just because you don't see it - is going to solve anything.
This thread turned interesting and I do see how my phrasing may have come off as overly cavalier or "kumbaya." That said, there are parts of the U.S. where interracial couples are more accepted than others; I know, because I've lived in a variety of them. So, while race is always a big deal--nobody is arguing that!--others' reactions need not stop us from getting to know one another.
And the mohawk comment was in no way meant to be trivializing. My point was that many more people experience negative social pressure about whom they're dating than one might think. That perspective is meant to be reassuring and inclusive (i.e. "lots of us get where you're coming from; you're not alone"), rather than divisive or a brush-off.
Cait- thank you for the response. As the OP, I will say that I appreciate you acknowledging some poor wordings. I am a Black man who works with educators to talk about race with their students. One of the posters seems to feel I'm smug and was trying to "get you" but I was actually just trying to point out the white people rarely understand that dating outside of race can be difficult for those of us of color. I too have lived in different parts of the country and my race has always been an issue (maybe a largely unspoken one) when dating. Thank you for reading and, again, for your response.
@G-
Don't worry about AAC, he/she/it enjoys attacking people and accusing them of all kinds of weird and evil motivations when they express opinions he/she/it doesn't completely agree with. I've seen it a bunch of times, and even experienced it myself once or twice. Just chalk it up to one of the funny quirks of commenting on Nerve. Some people learned the rules of civil discourse back in high school, and others...yeah. :-)
"It's a means of feeling smugly superior, of basking in a masturbatory self-righteousness which IMHO is one of the most toxic impulses found in human beings."
LMFAO, AAC - you've got quite the handle on smugly superior, masturbatory self-righteousness yourself, if that rant up there is characteristic of your normal speech. And if not, you do an eerily spot-on parody of a douchey keyboard jockey. I try to see the best in people, so I'll assume it's the latter. Kudos!
The response to the second letter is actually pretty terrible: "oh just keep looking, there are plenty of fish in the sea". But to be fair, the second letter is also kind of terrible: "I want a long term relationship, but I don't have the pragmatic stability for one". Abracadabra maybe needs to think critically about what she wants from a relationship and change her criteria. She says she's open minded about guys, but it doesn't sound like she open minded about the style of relationship she thinks she wants. The criteria upon which she bases initial relationships and tentative dates might need to be reconsidered. Instead of falling in love on first sight, Abracadabra might need to develop a romance without the enforced circumstances of "this is a date and we might get married so behave accordingly". I tried online dating, but I found the atmosphere to be ill-suited for romance. There's never any spark or excitement when both parties are in the mindset of "is this my soulmate?" right from get go. The relationships that have been the most exciting for me are the ones that sneak up on you, people that I didn't expect to fall in love with.
The first letter boggled my mind. Whether or not the writer feels like she's been trivialized or tokenized by the waiter, she'll never know for sure unless she asks him out. It's 2012, it's time to change the paradigm. Instead of wringing her hands over "does he like me?" she should simply ask him out and find out for sure. The complication of race might be in her head, or it might actually exist between the two. Again, she won't know until she makes a move.
Seriously, if that place has amazing food she might not want to jeopardize that special relationship between a restaurant and it's patron. It's really something few people experience in a life time.
Honestly though, lw1 should just ask him out or hint really hard that she would like him to ask her out. She's putting too much thought into it. We're not told how many white guys she's dated (the very presence of the letter tells me few) but if they were to go out, it would be a new experience for both of them. I can kinda understand where some of the people are coming from, but the whole thing just isn't that serious at this point. Get the question out first and based on how he acts make an assumption. If you're really that uncomfortable with his intentions possibly being never done this before might be fun, then don't ask.
A few points:
1) Respect the fact that you are not ready to date the waiter. You mention that you would not be able to handle a bad outcome of the potential relationship; with that in mind, respect your boundaries and don't date him.
2) However, I DO think you should get to know the waiter more. Getting to know him better will help you make an informed decision as to whether or not he is dating material or just friend material. One good way to get to know him would be to ask him to show you around the new city(?) where you live. He could be a good tour guide ...
3) FYI, I understand the concern about dating white guys who have not dated a black girl before. There is a whole lot of education inherent in that kind of a relationship, and it's not the sexiest thing in the world to have to explain black hair care or ashiness or other peculiarities of black life to someone is completely unaware of those details. On the other hand, I should note that white guys who have a history of dating black girls can be every bit as capable of fetishism as white guys who have never dated a black girl. For reference, my first husband -- who was kind of a jerk -- had dated black girls before me. My second husband -- who had never dated a black girl before me -- is a better person overall than Husband #1.
4) Regardless of the color of the person you choose to date, you can't really progress into a relationship without the courage to nudge things forward. As black women, people tend to assume that we are not available for a relationship (assumptions are a mutha), so a lot of the time, we have to make the first move. I have had to make the first move more times than I can count, and it hasn't always worked out. But hey, you only live once, right?
+100 Absolutely perfect, specific advice. :)
To me, the thing that jumped out in the first letter was how much thought she's put into this without ever having even gone on a date or hung out outside the restaurant with this guy. She really has no idea whether the interest is mutual, and if it is, whether or not they'd be suited for a relationship with each other, issues of race ASIDE! Just from a personality standpoint, she has no clue about this guy and therefore needs to scale back her expectations and her anxiety, if she wants to pursue something without freaking him out. She writes that she wants to trust him but is scared of being used...I think that's WAY too much pressure to be putting on something that, right now, exists in "unrequited crush" territory. That's the kind of statement you might make about someone you've been dating for a couple of months already, not someone you barely know. He isn't asking for her trust yet - he isn't asking her for a date yet! If she likes him, she should ask him to hang out and see where it leads, END OF STORY. And that advice would apply regardless of the race, gender, or sexual orientation of the folks involved. Given that this guy has expressed no opinion either way about her race, much less about his interest in dating her at all, I think the race issue is almost a red herring in this letter. The real issue is her unreasonably high expectations.
@Gray Area: You're full of speculation and worry, which will tell you exactly nothing. You have to try things, and figure them out as you go, then use those lessons to make judgments in the future.
You have no idea if you'd be his experiment. You have no idea his dating history. You have no idea if he dates a lot, or likes to, or anything. You have no idea if he's trustworthy.
You'll only find out by dating him.
Your level of fear & worry makes you sound inexperienced. So go get experience. Yes, some of it may hurt. Do your best, go slow, and learn.
Your idea that all men have no patience for shy girls is an unfounded generalization. Go get some experience with actual men, there are all types out there.
You're mostly talking about this waiter sexually and his attractiveness rather than what an awesome person he seems to be...so it sounds more like you want to use him rather than vice versa. Which is ok. As long as you're honest with him about your feelings (or lack thereof) towards him.
Also, the free website Meetup is a great way to make new friends, you may want to try it.
How the heck do you put line breaks in replies?!? The editor removes all whitespace when you post.
Do you need to use HTML?
Some insightful but long comments concerning lw2,
the TL;DR version:
Time to grow up.
The thing with LW1 is that if you don't ask him out because you're afraid he's hung up on race, then it's actually you who are hung up on race. I've found myself in a similar situation except white = Christian and black = atheist. If I don't ask out someone just because she's Christian (and in my mind, less open minded), then I'm the one who is not open minded. Paradox!
LW1 was kind of odd. It sounds like she's a bit socially awkward, and using race as a flimsy excuse to not get closer to the guy. "Experimental thrill"? Slow down girl, he hasn't even asked you out yet! In my experience men of all races are just men. If they see something they like, they go for it. If he's some kind of weirdo race fetishist (not likely) it'll come out on its own. No risk, no reward.
Also she should keep in mind that service people essentially flirt for a living. If he's handsome and working for tips, doubly so. Still, she can drop massive hints that she's single and interested. If it's more than just a hustle, he'll take it further. Again - no risk, no reward.
@BrosephofArimathea : Love this. Yeah, there are a million ways to discount someone/ talk yourself out of it before you ever talk to them.
"Are you too old to fall head-over-heels for someone anymore?" Only if they've attached one of those gizmos to your shoes that will track you down when you wander off.
Seconded. I am way older than most people who post here, but Sunday afternoon I fell head over heels for a tall dark-haired girl in a dress that let through the setting sun on Clement St in San Francisco, near Green Apple Books. Then I smacked myself in the head and went off to meet my honey in the other part of the store - but it was a welcome hint that I'm not near dead yet!
Gray Area, first of all, I am one of those extroverted talkative people who make friends easily. When it comes to attraction and romance, my preferred type is exactly someone like you: Someone shy or quiet, who sits in a corner with a book. Seriously, that works on me like nothing else. And it's not because I like the hunt or prey on insecurity.
I find people who can be alone with themselves very attractive because it's hard for me.
Also, I often feel like people make friends with me too fast because they want someone to entertain them. I like how introverts make me really work for the friendship and make me be more than just 'fun to hang out with'.
Of course he could just be an asshole who has "bang black girl" on his bucket list.
And if he does turn out to be an asshole, just remember that there are around 4 billion men in the world. That one random idiot is not their official representative. He's not even the representative for all the millions of white men. Or the representative for the millions of service workers. He is one guy who could be nice or malicious, and it's up to you to find out.
If you really feel that getting burned by him would mess you up, I would suggest you wait until you have made friends in your new environment before you date him. Right now, he is the (only?) person you feel most connected to/interested in, and you probably project your positive and negative shit on him like crazy. Don't put the responsibility of making your new life a good experience on him.
Get some other people to hang out with. Or at least one other friend. Because if you do end up getting hurt, or if you get together and break up, you are much more likely to stay in a bad relationship if that bad relationship is the only relationship you have.
tl,dr:
Fuck him without expecting good or bad things from him. If you can't do that, fuck him after you have settled in more and made some friends.
Good lucK!
Ha. Love this. Yeah--there are a million ways to discount someone before you actually get to know them.