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June 17, 2012
Miss Information
Is my boyfriend allowed to sleep with other girls if they're lesbians? Because he thinks he is.
By Cait Robinson
Have a question for Miss Information? Email missinfo@nerve.com.
Dear Miss Information,
My boyfriend and I have been dating for about three months, and have been very happy. He's a sweet, charismatic guy and, as such, has quite a few female friends. I understand this, and do my best to hold back the jealousy monster and let him have time with them. But today he told me one of his friends — who's a lesbian — asked him to have sex with her, because she had a bad experience when she was younger. He told me she wanted to face that nightmare with somebody she trusts. He didn't give her an answer, and instead came to me.
I was a little put off that he didn't immediately tell her no, because our relationship has always been exclusive, even when we were in the first stages of dating. I then responded that I would much prefer that he tell her no, then asked what he would say if the situation was reversed, and I wanted to sleep with a gay man. His response? "Yeah, I'd let you. Why not?"
This also caught me very off-guard, so I asked why. He said, "They would have no real interest." I don't really see how that matters; to me, sex is sex regardless of sexual orientation or interest. I feel like him doing anything more than what's acceptable in the bounds of friendship is cheating, regardless of the girl's sexual orientation. Ultimately, I told him how upset I was, and he turned her down.
While I'm happy that he didn't push the issue, it still bothers me that he would even have to ask. Part of me thinks that he can't possibly really care for me while still seriously considering sleeping with another woman. And yet another part of me says it's still early in the relationship and I'm freaking out more than I should, and I just need to calm down. Shouldn't I be happy that he understood it would make me upset and told her no?
So I'm torn: am I crazy? Is that the same as cheating? And do I have a right to be upset that he was willing to sleep with her, and would be okay with me sleeping with another guy as long as he was gay?
— Flabbergasted
Dear Flabbergasted,
Any sexual activity that happens outside of the bounds of your relationship counts as cheating. By "bounds," I mean "rules you both agree upon." By definition, one's first priority in an relationship should be one's partner — and, by extension, the expectations they set with that partner. You're uncomfortable, so it's cheating. Case closed.
But this also raises some baffling points. What is this other girl doing, propositioning an unavailable guy? And, no, her gayness does not act as a force field: sex is sex, regardless of how she wants her eggs the morning after. Which brings us to your boyfriend's impressive cluelessness regarding human sexuality. The words "gay," "straight," and "bi" are shorthand that we as English-speakers have settled on to express points in a complicated matrix. They're approximations, not definitions.
Ultimately, though, intention (i.e. "It's fine because she's gay!" or "This got way less okay now I know she's bi") is way less important than boundaries. Why does she think she can step in on your relationship without causing damage? And why does your boyfriend seemingly agree with her? She is absolutely allowed to explore the edges of her own sexuality — but not if it infringes on commitments her would-be partner has made to someone else.
Lastly, Flabbergasted, have some faith in your own convictions. Many things about this situation are "crazy," but your reaction is least among them. Don't be so quick to assume you're the one who just doesn't get it.
Dear Miss Information,
I'm a twenty-one-year-old virgin who's never been in any sort of relationship and is dying to be touched/loved by a man. I have a great amount of self-esteem (I'm attractive, intelligent, and funny, with a generous dose of awkward that makes me accessible to the populace), but no one seems to be knocking at my door! I've tried everything (clubs, bars, friends, class, art shows), but I've never been asked on a date except by the random homeless fellow at the bus stop. I'm starting to wonder if it's me.
I will admit that for the past year and a half, I've been pining for a man who will never want me. I've finally accepted this and have since moved on, with no results. I hoped that this was the reason for my lonely nights — that I was giving off a "do not approach me" vibe — but still I'm alone.
I've read numerous advice blogs that suggest I stop forcing the issue, and I have for the most part. I'm working on improving myself, I'm excelling at my full-time job this summer, and I even made straight A's last semester. But lately I worry that what I'm truly doing is turning myself into a hermit, that I'm disappearing from the world and forcing myself into a solitude of self-doubt and insecurity. I don't believe in waiting for a man to come sweep me off my feet, but my active pursuit of the other sex has also done nothing for me.
I've listened to all the cliched advice. I go out with friends, hang out at places that I like, do things that I love, but I always come home wondering why I'm alone. I know in my heart that I'm a good person — honest, real, and kind — so it makes my eyes water and fingers ache to realize that nobody wants me. Do you think it's me? Am I just making excuses to be alone? Or is there a secret on how to meet a guy who I'm interested in who's also interested in me?
— College Virgin Impatient for Love
Dear College Virgin,
As a thought experiment, let's reverse the roles. Imagine the last party you went to. Who were the guys who caught your attention? Were they the ones already surrounded by friends who seemed in their element? Or were they the ones who laughed too hard, talked too much, or seemed over-eager for human contact? This is my column, so I get to answer for you. $10 says you were lusting after the former. Who wouldn't? Desperate hoverers are the worst! (Let she who has not been a desperate hoverer be the first to throw stones, of course.)
For a dose of bummer, I'm reminded of a Nick Hornby quote, from his novel How to Be Good: "Love, it turns out, is as undemocratic as money, so it accumulates around people who have plenty of it already: the sane, the healthy, the lovable." I scribbled that in my journal (I know) when I was a teenager, struck by the poetic unfairness of it all. From a safe distance, I can call a qualified "bullshit" on it. That line is the voice of a narrator, not the voice of God. I was not destined to be alone at seventeen. You are not destined to be alone at twenty-one. But that line does speak some truth. It sounds like you've already got a lot of love accumulated around you — it's just not the specific type you're looking for.
So how to you earn more love? By playing up how lovable you already are. (Hat tip, Hornby.) The best way to do this is to stop trying. Go to art shows... because you like the art. Hang out with friends... because you like their company. Be open, but don't chase. You should find that removing ulterior motives does wonders: stay present where you are, not pining over what you don't have. All of your relationships should improve — present ones as well as future ones.
Also remember that each of us has our own timetable. Don't rush into something because you feel some unseen clock ticking, and please, please don't compare yourself to anyone. You can be a badass thirty-year-old virgin, just like you can be a killer twenty-five-year-old mom; it's about owning your particular experience with grace and style. You've got nobody to answer to but the publisher of your future memoirs.
Want to meet someone who won't try to sleep with their friends? Meet them on Nerve.
Commentarium (55 Comments)
in the first letter, i thought it a little odd that she gets a pass for getting pissed at him just for asking. after all, the best way to cultivate honesty in a relationship is to be open to listening when your partner communicates something. she's totally in her rights to be uncomfortable and pissed about the idea of it happening, but to be pissed at him for even asking? what if he wanted to talk about an actual open relationship? would she be in her rights to be pissed at him for bringing that up, too?
the second response, also, i found a little odd-- there's absolutely no mention of the girl approaching guys she likes and asking THEM out, which guys are expected to do. Mrs Info's usually pretty gung-ho about challenging social gender norms, but apparently not this time.
i'm usually an unrestrained fan of what she has to say, but this pair left me shaking my head a little bit.
Agree 110%. Especially the second one. I thought the answer was so obvious the way the girl kept detailing how she waits to be approached, but the advice was "wait to be approached more discreetly"? Sorry if "approach people, join dating sites; waiting around looking approachable is NOT being proactive" is less romantic, but I think it's warranted.
+2. LW1 - Yes, you're crazy! You've been dating a guy for 12 weeks and he had enough faith in you to talk to you about a very difficult subject with mutual respect. No matter how much love, trust and commitment is between two people, something weird and surprising will always come up. No matter what. The best you can ever hope for is that your partner loves you enough to believe you'll be cool about it, and you can come to a satisfying decision together. If he never tells you anything you find odd or a little frightening, he's not telling you everything. (This comes from a queer woman in a 7 year homo relationship, if that helps give context.)
LW2 - There is a huge different between being more assertive or being corny and forced the way Cait described. Yes, if you want attention you have to flirt! You have to be brave enough to start conversations. This isn't being predatory or desperate or fake. It's being confident, and doing the little extra work that's needed to break into everyone else's self-absorbed insecurities and let them know you're open to some appropriate party chatting. I think one of the most attractive things when meeting a new person is their ability to take the burden of making conversation off of you.
also, the insertion of that ad at the end is pretty crass.
>While I'm happy that he didn't push the issue, it still bothers me that he would even have to ask. Part of me thinks that he can't possibly really care for me while still seriously considering sleeping with another woman.
Can anyone explain this one for me? I know it's a pretty common opinion, and I know the LW hedged by saying maybe it was still too early in the relationship, but I really, really have never been able to get this, on a gut level. Why would having interest in sex with other people be a reliable indicator that you don't care about the person you're with? I might love you without taking your side in an argument if I think you're being unreasonably petty; I might love you without buying you the present you want if I think you're being unreasonably materialistic -- so why can't I love you without being 100% exclusive in bed if I think you're being unreasonably jealous? People seem to take this for granted, like it's an obvious piece of common sense, but to me it doesn't make any sense at all.
No haters, please -- I'm trying to learn here. Educate me.
At first I thought I understood your question, but this part threw me: "why can't I love you without being 100% exclusive in bed if I think you're being unreasonably jealous?" Are you saying that if I feel jealous (which may be quite reasonable to me, but not so much to you) you get to sleep around? Would my "unreasonable" jealously give you the green light to be unfaithful? No attacks meant - I just don't understand the phrasing there.
But more to your original point, it's not the fact that he's thinking about having sex with another person, it's that he's actually considering going through with it. Everyone will always fantasize about sex with someone else, get crushes, or get the urge to rip someone's clothes off when they're in a relationship. That's fine. We're human, it happens. But this guy was under the impression that actually sleeping with this girl was a reasonable option for him, and that's were it crosses the line. Fantasies are normal, but sex outside of the boundaries that have been set in your relationship are not, regardless of who it might be with.
Hey, M, thanks for the thoughtful response.
> Would my "unreasonable" jealousy give you the green light to be unfaithful?
No, it can't be a unilateral decision, or you're not in a relationship. We have to come to a common understanding, or, failing that, agree to some kind of compromise. The mere fact that I disagree with you isn't a license for me to do whatever the hell I want.
>But this guy was under the impression that actually sleeping with this girl was a reasonable option for him, and that's where it crosses the line.
Well, see, here's where I disagree. Why does a desire for sex outside a relationship have to stay put as a 'fantasy'? Why is it "unreasonable" to not just fantasize about other partners, but to have a serious discussion about whether (and on what terms) other people can be included in a sexual relationship?
The original LW says that her relationship with the guy had always been exclusive, even in the initial stages of dating. If they worked that out for themselves as something they both wanted, then great -- I have no problem with that, and the dude was being unrealistic to think that his girlfriend would suddenly change her mind. But I've been in a lot of relationships, and heard friends talk about a lot of relationships, where the exclusivity goes without saying, or where the "agreement" to be exclusive is put in extremely vague terms. The question "Are we a thing now?" can mean "Do you think you'll want to go out again most of the next few weekends?" to a guy and "Do you solemnly promise not to make out with anybody else?" to a girl. Some couples use language that's a little clearer than that, but even so, they haven't put any thought into what exclusivity means to them or why it's important -- it's just the normal thing to do that shows that you care and that you take the relationship seriously.
Is that what you have in mind when you talk about "the boundaries that have been set in your relationship? Like you, I don't mean any attack, I just don't fully understand your post.
I see what you're saying. I think I missed what you were getting at in your first post, but you clarified it pretty well. That said, you're not wrong at all, and I don't disagree with you. I think it would be very healthy for couples to discuss what they want or don't want when it comes to having sex with other people. Some people need to be in an open relationship, so under those circumstances the desire to carry out any sexual fantasies would be fine, provided that both partners are fully comfortable with and supportive of this arrangement. So in that respect, you're absolutely right.
I was under the impression that the couple in question had already hashed this out. The LW says that their relationship has always been exclusive, which I interpreted as that they had reached a mutual understanding about what "exclusivity" means, i.e. not having sex with other people. In that case, the boyfriend's idea that sleeping with his friend would still fall into the realm of "okay" is totally off the mark.
Does that make more sense?
Yes, absolutely. Gay people are people too -- if you agree not to have sex with other people, you can't have sex with gay people. I think js's comment below is insightful -- if the boyfriend had explicitly agreed to be exclusive, then this was, at best, a very clumsy attempt to re-open that conversation. Assuming that your partner won't have a problem with straight-boy-on-lesbian sex smacks of wishful thinking.
Worse, that he thought it was okay only because of his friend's supposed sexual orientation. So he clearly understood boundaries except for this one minor detail. That's what made it so strange to me.
You're right, Argothair, and js does bring up a good point. In a way, it's kind of like someone asking for a threesome - it's a fantasy that, under normal rules of exclusivity, would be impossible to carry out.
And BB, I completely agree. It's one thing to suggest an open relationship. It's totally another to think that sex with a lesbian wouldn't count as cheating because she's gay. If I were the LW, I'd be outta there. That level of cluelessness doesn't bode well for a healthy relationship.
lw1: I think the real problem here is that your boyfriend is acting completely passive and oblivious instead of owning what he wants. Does he want to sleep with his friend? Then that's what he should have said. Does he like the idea of open relationships/does he not get easily jealous? Then that's something he should tell you. But this whole, "if they say they're gay, then it isn't cheating" thing makes no sense and seems like an excuse/a ruse. It seems like he wants to have sex with his friend, and was trying to get you to agree to it by going along with your ""if I slept with a gay man..." hypothetical. Inquiring with your girlfriend about a sexy request from a third party is not the major crime here; being shady, passive, and willfully oblivious is.
+1
Re: "College Virgin"...that was lame advice Miss Info. I don't know why she's not getting asked on a date. But regardless of why, she doesn't have to be a passive audience in her own life, waiting for some guy to ask her on a date. She can be an active agent in her own life, to make things happen.
At its simplest...initiate conversations with lots of guys. Especially ones that have caught your interest for whatever reason. Also, observe how other women give "hints" that they're open to being more than friends, then copy those women: be flirty, be responsive/attentive, break the "touch barrier" with the guy. Or be direct and take a risk. "Want to go on a date?" Ask it in a tone that does NOT make it seem like it will be the end of your world if he declines.
Seriously! "Stop trying so hard" is the wrong advice. It sounds like a break to work on self-esteem, etc. isn't necessary here, and I kinda think that "trying" will find you a date faster than "not trying". I think you just need a better strategy. It sounds like you're trying to pick up strangers, but just showing up at an art show isn't going to make you approachable. You might be a cool person, but standing around in public will not automatically mean people will hit on you, since they don't know you're awesome yet. So you have a few options for better strategy: ask out guys that you already know (friends, casual acquaintances, etc.) who you find attractive. If this is too hard, tell your mutual acquaintances very openly and unabashedly that you're interested this person. It WILL get back to the person you're into, and since he'll know you're interested you will have effectively removed "what if she's not into me" barriers, and he will ask you out. If he wants. If not, no harm done, simply repeat with another dude. If there aren't any dudes that you already know that you'd be interested in dating, then you need to adjust your stranger-meeting strategy. Find a friend who is good at picking up dudes, and get her to help you. Or, EVEN BETTER, just go on OKCupid (free!), which will get you loads and loads of dates, and has the benefit of being unambiguously date-y. You'll go from "I'm at this art show to maybe get hit on by a dude" to "I'm at this art show on a date with a dude." Just sayin'. Don't stop trying, try differently.
Trust me, no attractive, intelligent, funny, and charmingly awkward young woman should want any man with an OKCupid profile.
All she should need to do is to dress attractively and strike up conversations with men she is interested in at work/school/social events. The be pleasant and laugh at their jokes and tough their upper arm with your hand when you are trying to make a point. Basically seem like you are interested. It will work.
@Kevin I see what you mean. At the same time, "desperation" projects--so if she's finding that her old methods of hitting on everyone aren't working, it may work to re-center herself a bit. I certainly didn't mean to imply she should just stop trying altogether, though, just re-shift her priorities.
@QCIC Yes! Arm touch is gold.
That last paragraph was wonderful. Thanks Miss Information!
i thought so too
LW1: So many things to address in this letter. First of all, that "lesbian friend" who wanted to borrow a cup of your boyfriend is a gnarly little shit head. She couldn't have asked him 3.5 months ago, before you two met and he was presumably single? Wanting to work out your stranger danger issues isn't an excuse to infringe on other people's personal situations.
That said, I'm not a dude myself, and I'm sure your boyfriend cares deeply about you and doesn't want to hurt you. But "A lesbian asked me to have sex with her and MY GIRLFRIEND WAS OKAY WITH IT" is the type of story a guy could impress his friends with until he's senile in the nursing home, and beyond. He probably is just fine with having to pass on the opportunity, but he thought he'd at least give it a shot by asking you about it first. Try and think of what you'd do if some celebrity in your Top 5 wanted to hook up. Maybe you would Stand By Your Man and turn them down out of hand. But just maybe, you'd ask if it was okay first.
Anyway, it's not a reflection on you or your relationship, so try to let it slide (but keep an eye on that guy-poaching lesbian).
LW2:
Quit standing there and pining like a reincarnated Bronte sister, waiting for some guy to spot you and do all the work. At your age, there are so many people in your peer group that everyone is spoiled by oversupply; no one notices the wallflower except creepy 45-year olds.
Sign up for OKCupid or Match.com and go on some dates, already! At least everyone on a dating site is self-selected for the intention to meet other people. You don't have to marry them-just go out to eat and see some movies and work on your interpersonal skills. Then you'll learn two things: that you're not undateable, and that being single AIN'T SO BAD.
Bravo to this advice!
"Quit standing there and pining like a reincarnated Bronte sister, waiting for some guy to spot you and do all the work."
Priceless! Nailed it.
LW2 said this:
"(I'm attractive, intelligent, and funny, with a generous dose of awkward that makes me accessible to the populace)"
But also said they are a virgin at 21. Hat tip to LW2: despite what you think you are (attractive, intelligent, funny) you aren't. Stop eating the fast food and go to the gym more often.
"Hat tip" doesn't mean what you think it means. Also, you're a terrible troll.
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
@Inigo Montoya You killed my father. Now prepare to die.
wait, why is a lesbian wanting to have sex with a guy?
I was trying to imagine some way this would make sense. Let's say she was abused sexually by a man some time in her past, and she can't even think about being close to a guy without the memories coming up. Maybe that's even why she became a lesbian. Except she is close to him, so she thinks that having sex with him might override her past memory and make her more open to relationships with guys. Would she still be a lesbian, then, though? Even if LW1 were OK with this concept, getting away from being a lesbian would seem to invalidate the reasoning, and LW1's boyfriend would become "the only guy who ever cared for me" to the somewhat-lesbian, probably not good going forward. So it's still a mess, and LW1 was right to refuse. But it's also OK for the guy to ask. Being in a relationship doesn't mean you never think about sleeping with other people, you just don't do it, as you prefer being in your relationship.
I assumed she was abused as well, JFC. While going forward with sex is certainly a bad idea, I think most everyone, including LW1, is missing the reason it's bad. It's not transition to an open relationship. Unless the whole thing is a lie (she's not a lesbian, didn't have whatever bad experience) or he's simply a huge dick who doesn't care about his traumatized friend's feelings, this isn't just about him trying to get laid. Maybe attraction plays a small part, but his main motivation is probably helping his friend. Sleeping with her is a bad idea because it has the potential to harm their friendship and her emotional well-being, even if LW1 was okay with it. It seems that LW1 and her boyfriend probably have different views about sex and what constitutes the boundaries of a friendship. They should at least begin a real discussion about sex with no pressure or accusations. If they agree, good. If not, you pay the price of admission or you pass. Unless he's been dishonest, there's no reason to panic. LW1 is over-reacting.
While I agree that it would be a bad idea for the boyfriend to sleep with the "lesbian friend", I'm going to disagree with you that "his main motivation is probably helping his friend." As a guy who had a number of lesbian/bisexual friends, the main motivation is always "because they are fucking hot chicks" and then "helping out a friend".
LW2's situation, the way she presents it, doesn't add up. I don't know ANY 21-year-old college girls who can't get attention from men with even the slightest effort - even ones who don't possess the beauty, charm, and intelligence LW2 claims to be blessed with. She either isn't assessing herself realistically, or she's emitting unapproachable, desperate, or otherwise off-putting vibes that are blocking her more attractive qualities from view. A few clues in the letter (her "great self esteem", listing all her fantastic qualities, pining for a man who doesn't want her, etc.) would suggest that she may be aiming for guys out of her league, and possibly ignoring men who might be more realistic prospects. She should elicit the opinion of a few harshly honest friends and/or male acquaintances who can give her an outside perspective of what she's doing wrong, because her assessment of the situation doesn't ring true.
And I can't even touch the LW1 mess. Can you say DRAMA? If LW1 has half a brain, neither her insensitive boyfriend or his boundary-lacking lesbian "friend" will be in the picture much longer. If one of my friends propositioned me in such an emotionally manipulative way WHILE I was in a relationship, the only thing she'd be getting from me is the number of a good therapist. The fact that he's still friends with this person, let alone actually considering her weird and inappropriate request, says it all. That shit cray!
Thx. Thought so too, glad somebody else says it
LW2- Weird, I just recently coached a friend with the exact same complaint! Believe it or not, it's completely justified for young women who do in fact have great self-esteem and who really are truly attractive to not be asked out by men. My friend is beautiful and confident and if she was anything else, I would say so because I do possess the ability to be "harshly honest."
My friend's problem comes from the fact that, although, she says she's over her guy and I guess mostly she is, she's so busy looking for the same man (look-wise, personality-wise, etc) that she doesn't even notice all the men that are looking at her. Maybe that's the real problem here too. Your perception is your reality and if you're busy dismissing each man you pass who isn't ideal before he can even drum up the guts to ask you out, then well, nobody ever asks you out. Again, perception = reality.
I think Miss Information had some solid advice about being open. If you're at a party or art show or wherever asking yourself why nobody has asked you out, then you're not open. Get rid of your relationship motive and realize your opportunity to meet a new friend who may lead to more friends and more friends and then maybe somewhere, a relationship.
My friend is exactly how you describe yourself. If you really are as attractive, smart and funny as you say you are, but sending out these closed-off vibes, then of course no one will ask you out because they probably think you don't want to be asked out because you're not looking or already in a relationship. Guys want some hint that they will be successful, right?
Yes, I also get the feeling she's putting off unapproachable vibes. I've had attractive friends who complain "no men approach me" when I know for a fact plenty of men are interested - they're just not alpha males, men who meet her specific standards, clones of the guy who broke her heart, etc. The "beautiful girl who never gets approached" is a real thing, but it's hardly an inexplicable mystery why that happens. They aren't going to approach a woman they never see flirting, accepting male attention, or even giving men the time of day.
I disagree with your assessment of letter 1. It took me until I was 25 to find a boyfriend, and I was very frustrated up until that point. I've now been going strong for four months with a guy about my own age who is smart, sweet, and handsome. Also, we have sex all the time. I had to be more assertive with him when we first started dating, than I usually am with guys. Like the OP, I think I have some good qualities, but I wasn't raised to know how to interact romantically with guys, and I never had guys falling all over me. I think the idea that romance is easy for women, and that good partners just fall in our lap, is mostly a myth perpetuated by men.
And by letter 1 I mean 2.
Your individual experience doesn't discount my point, nn. And nobody said "romance is easy for women, and that good partners just fall in our lap", so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
My point was that if LW2 is as great as she claims to be, and is doing all the things she claims to be doing, it's very hard to believe not ONE suitable man would be interested after years of effort. It's more likely that there's a blind spot - she is either missing one or more not-so-attractive qualities about herself (which is easy for anyone to do), or she's not paying attention to men around her who are interested, or that she is somehow signaling unapproachability. It's hard to tell just from a letter. But I stand by my point that if she is really amazing and really doing all these things to meet men, there either isn't a problem (i.e. she just needs to wait a bit longer) OR there is a problem and she's just not seeing it.
Can we please move on from the "still a virgin"/"never had a serious relationship" category now? Yes, those are valid topics and I can relate to a certain extent...but there's something along those lines every other week and there can't be that many readers in those situations, right? The advice for those questions all boils down to "Everything will be okay." Warm and fuzzy, but not interesting.
There must be more than you think, since those types of questions come up so often. I could have written the second letter (though I didn't), and if there's two people in the situation who are Nerve readers, surely there are plenty more.
Several others who are like LW2 are posting replies above.
@Maraa It's a bigger segment of the population (at least, the letter-writing population) than I ever would have thought. But as Kevin noted, can't a lot of us identify?
It's not cheating if he asks first and the doesn't do it if his girlfriend says no. And it's not cheating if his girlfriend gives permission for him to have sex with someone else.
As for LW2, she seems like a bundle of tension to me, which would explain why guys are shying away.
Why has nobody commented on the photo choice? So perfect; I love it.
Anyone asking why on earth a lesbian would ever want to sleep with a guy has never seen Chasing Amy. Sexuality is complicated, yo. Label jars not people.
@fan Dude. Mid-90s Joey Lauren Adams. <3
The headline makes it sound as if LW1's boyfriend wants to sleep with many lesbians. It's only one, and she's his friend. No big deal.
I don't understand why you put a ton of blame on the lesbian in the first letter (I'm gonna call her "Mary" so I don't have to refer to her as the lesbian). So she asked an "unavailable" man to sleep with her. When cheating occurs it is horrible to blame anyone besides the SO - Mary has made no commitments and is not breaking any rules. She may not even know what the "bounds" of the relationship is. The writer says she and her boyfriend have been "dating", but dating does not always imply monogamy the same way "engaged" or "married" does - especially if it's only been for three months. Three months of dating is still definitely in "maybe not monogamous" zone, so I can't understand how an OUNCE of blame can be projected onto Mary. Asking someone who's already attached would be a perfect way for Mary to accomplish her goal - have satisfactory sex without the worry of a long-term relationship.
But bottom-line even if the man were married with two children, if Mary asked him to sleep with her, she's allowed, because he must be projecting something that makes her think it's okay.
WT bloody F? You must be trolling.
These social conventions exist for a reason, you weirdo - if you go around sexually propositioning your dating/engaged/married friends without provocation, you'll soon HAVE no friends. People have a right to expect their so-called "friends" to respect the boundaries of their *exclusive* relationships (and yes, LW1 did say they were exclusive).
"But bottom-line even if the man were married with two children, if Mary asked him to sleep with her, she's allowed, because he must be projecting something that makes her think it's okay."
I don't even know where to start with that mess. By that principle ANY sexually predatory behavior can be excused because the victim "must be projecting something" to make the aggressor think it's okay. So next time a creepy guy ignores my wedding ring and hits on me at the train station, he's "allowed", because I must've been sending him signals or vibes or something. It's not like people ever just violate other people's social boundaries for no reason or anything, they must've been asking for it somehow. YOU ARE WEIRD.
I don't completely agree with K, but in the context of this letter, I kind of see the point. The guy was obviously not against the proposition; and "charismatic" and "lots of female friends" is (I know I'll get yelled at for this), in my experience, often code for "flirty" and "not very observant of romantic boundaries". This guy proved that by his actions.
Here's the thing: a partner who holds monogamous relationships in high regard would never, ever even think of asking of LW1 what her new boyfriend did. Clearly, this guy's boundaries are more relaxed than hers; the question seems to be, at this early stage, who will compromise their boundaries for whom, in this relationship.
the response to LW1 seems really harsh. lesbian identified woman wants an experience with a man and lo and behold she has one handy. everyone communicates openly, then it doesn't work out. NBD.
How much do you want to bet "around 3 months" means 9 weeks, and "always been exclusive" means "I haven't dated anyone else since and I assume he's in the same boat." He likely/possibly wasn't even sure where the boundaries were in the relationship since the 2-3 month mark would normally be the time when you maybe possibly do something crazy like communicate openly.
LW2
I totally understand.
It's something I used to say in the Confessions area of the site all the time: it's 2012, challenge the heteronormativity. Girls can ask out boys. Boys can ask out girls. I absolutely fail to see why Miss Info didn't provide this easy to understand and easy to accomplish advice. If you're an attractive female, and you ask out an attractive available male, surely the odds of disaster are minimal. If things go pear-shaped immediately, then nothing lost. Move onto the next man you find attractive. Of course, attractive referring to overall attractiveness, not just physical attributes. Go out there and make friends, LW2. Don't sit in your dorm wondering why everybody is slamming everybody else.
For the first question:
Let's look at this properly: Why would a lesbian woman want sex with a guy? Because she wants him, that's why! There are PLENTY of men out there that would have sex with her in a flash (especially if they found out she was "lesbian"), if all she wanted was to dip her toe in the hetro sex pool again. But she doesn't want 'plenty of men' she wants the guy she approached. She knows he's in a relationship - they're friends. It didn't stop her from asking - and honestly, he wants her too since he didn't turn her down there and then. That is what we do, if we're asked out/offered sex/offered food/offered drugs, we weigh up what we want. If you want the guy/girl, you may play coy at first, but you won't be able to stop thinking about it. Yes, yes, we all know the social norms "you're in a relationship so you can't have your cake and eat it too"... but why not? because it's not normal? because we belive that God will strike us down? Because because because. There are so many reasons people give for why we shouldn't 'cheat'... but if we look at the stats at least 50% of the populations doesn't give damn about the so-called norms.
Of course any man would love to be able to make the statement : "she used to be lesbian, but I was so damn sexy, she just had to have me!" And, as mentioned above scoring a lesbian, it's most men's wet dream.
Men and women aren't that different! We all want to be wanted and we all ache for the feeling of lustful, chandelier-swinging, mind blowing sex with "Strange" /new partner/lover/one nighter... whatever you prefer.
Cheating? what is cheating? Sure he's/she's/you're "spoken for" but if you look at it at all scientifically humans were actually NOT built to be monogamous. I know the social norms are "keep your hands off a married or 'taken' man/woman".... but why? why do we stick to these social norms?
If you are programmed to want just that one person for ever and ever and ever.... amen, then great for you. But looking at the stats, most humans are not built that way. You may have a great sexual appetite than your husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend/lover or it may be the other way around. You may not be 100% compatible when it comes to sexual routines/norms/likes etc. You may love your partner but need more than they can provide...So why get stuck in a rut and eventually get divorced/break up just because one of you isn't enjoying the bedroom scene?
It is absolutely possible to have sex with other people than your partner and not leave them.
To the second question:
You're 21, for God's sake woman, you're not 81!! Let yourself have fun, enjoy people's company, put yourself out there and show your sexy side. Men will be all over you! And even if they don't come 'knocking at your door' as you put it - then go knock on their door! A lot of men quite like the normal roles reversed. Why should we see men as knights on white horses, rushing to rescue the poor maiden in distress? Why not be the strong woman, riding naked down the street on a horse, bareback?? grab onto your life with both hands! that is how you will enjoy yourself.
LW1 - Uh, that would be a yeah, you have every right to be pissed, at both him and her. Because it's never "just" sex. For one party in this little hook-up will always have little more riding on it emotionally than the other. And I'm not talking about you.
If there's one thing that has been proven to me time and time again, it is never "just sex". One person is always a little more invested when people try to tell themselves that. And that, my dear, is a fact.
Right on! Everyone knows that celebrities and anyone you have had sex before with before are OK and don’t count as cheating, so why not gays, transgender, travesties, etc?