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February 1, 2010
Dear Miss Information,
My partner and I have been together and exclusive for over two years. Before that, he was more or less a reckless Casanova: it's a small town, and he's slept with most of our mutual female acquaintances in socially messy ways. He maintained extended sexual relationships with different women who were not aware of each other and remained involved with partners who were openly more emotionally invested in the relationship without communicating his own lack of reciprocity. Sometimes his past bothers me to the point where I feel physically sick — repulsed by the callousness that is now markedly absent from his behavior — but he's matured and been wholly honorable with me.
My problem is that my landlord has invited one of these ladies to move into the house I rent. She was abrasive and catty back when my fellow began showing interest in me, though I can't blame her: he'd simply stopped coming around rather than officially ending anything with her. She's been cordial with me the last few times I've seen her, but I'm hesitant about living with someone who may still harbor hostility towards me. In my gut I have a feeling of violation, but I generally don't dislike her and I don't want to be an asshole! Even if she moves in and is perfectly nice to me, I'm afraid I'm going to feel sick and angry. I think part of me needs to have it acknowledged that it's okay to be upset by his past indiscretions, but beyond that I don't know how to deal with my emotions. — Not Just Jealous
Dear Not Just Jealous,
And I thought my landlord was a jagbag. Holy cow. I don't suppose it's too late to find an alternate roommate and do a hard sell? Tell your landlord they'll pay $100 a month over what this other chick is planning to pay plus light landscaping and windows. The best way to avoid unpleasant situations is to prevent them. Have you told your landlord about the weirdness? They don't like renter drama any more than the rest of us. Maybe she was on the fence to begin with and this will be the push she needs to reconsider her offer.
Half-cocked real-estate schemes aside, I agree with your choice of nom de plume. I'm seeing more than just the green-eyed monster: anger, resentment, and lack of regard are also coming to the fore. I printed your letter ninety-nine percent as is, with the exception of one phrase, for which I substituted the words "reckless Casanova." Why? Because it read cruel. If a boyfriend called me what you called your boyfriend, I'd want to smack him in the mouth. I realize what you say to people in person and what you write to an advice columnist are different, but I still think it's telling. You may believe in his spiritual and ethical conversion, but do you really respect him? Are you proud to be dating him? Would you be willing to stand up and defend his many wonderful qualities to a roomful of people from your small town? While an ex moving in puts a strain on any relationship, I can't help but wonder whether your gut reaction would be better if the base foundation were stronger.
You wanted to know whether it's okay to be upset by his past indiscretions, and I am giving you the go-ahead. Feel free to print and frame this column. But I do think you should: a) control how those feelings are expressed — talking to him about it is permissible, calling him nasty names is not; and b) ask yourself what those feelings mean. Is it symptomatic of other issues between you two or is it standard, garden-variety insecurity? If it's the latter (which, no offense, I don't think it is), what can you do about it?
While we're being action-oriented, I would try talking to the woman in question. Be cagey at first. Share a little. Wait. Share some more. If living with her is inevitable, it's to your benefit to clear the air. Ill feelings usually die off the more you get to know someone.
Readers, do you think that last sentence is true, or is that just my being Midwestern?
Dear Miss Information,
I have been seeing a girl for three months. We never argue and have a ton in common. She's got a cool job, smart friends, and a killer apartment. I even like her dog. The problem, though, is that I'm not attracted to her. She's not bad looking, but something's just missing in that area. I've been hanging out with her, trying to see if the attraction will grow, but it's not. She's not my usual type — I have a history of dating good-looking women that are completely Crazytown. I feel like I might need to break it off, but I don't want to lose her as friend. Should I wait and see? I'm tempted to give it a little longer. I don't know why I can't just be happy with what I have. I'm thirty-seven and want to settle down. Everyone else is married. Am I being unrealistic about my options? — Gift Horse
Dear Gift Horse,
If you're unrealistic, then so is everyone else. It's easy to find someone attractive or someone you like, but it's rare to find both in the same person. A longtime dater, I've walked away from homely saints who rehabilitate feral kittens as well as empty-headed gents straight out of the "Exactly My Taste 1970s-Looking Men With Beards" catalog. You can try to fake it with either, but neither will last very long. A thirty-seven-year old who's not attracted is no different than a seventeen-year old who's not attracted is no different than an eighty-seven-year old who's not attracted. You can't intellectualize what's biological.
That's not to say it's not important to be reflective. Think about your choices and look at them as a whole. Is there a pattern? Something that's been preventing you from finding the right person? Are you acting like an idiot at times and sabotaging yourself? It sounds like you're already looking for those answers. If you want to take it even further, a no-holds-barred chat with someone whose opinion you respect (or who has an office with Newsweek in the waiting room and mauve couches) can help. I would funnel my energy into this self-reflection instead of trying to manufacture an artificial spark where there is none.
Most likely you'll lose her as a friend. That's what you get for breaking up with somebody. I know that hurts, but trust me, she'll be hurting far, far more. If you do stay in contact, let it be on her terms. Though if her terms mean hanging out several nights a week as "buddies" and commenting on each other's dating profiles, you may have to put up some walls. You're the bartender, she's the customer. For her emotional safety, know when to cut her off.
Who here thinks I'm being unrealistic about Gift Horse's situation? Have you ever been not attracted to someone and then decided you want to jump their bones? What prompted the turnaround?
Have a question? Email erin@nerve.com. Letters may be edited for length, content and clarity.
Commentarium (28 Comments)
I have a problem with a generic "not attracted". What does it mean "not attracted"? Do you like to look at her across the room? Yes/No. Do you like to see her naked? Yes/No. If you touch her, do you feel tingles? Yes/No. Are you kinky and she is vanilla in bed or vice versa? Yes/No.
I dated a guy once and when we went out on dates I had a hard time believing I was sitting across the table from that hottie. We had the funnest dates ever and we had tons of chemistry - until we got in bed. In bed he completely forgot that he had a naked woman in front of him and started touching himself and the whole time was rubbing his own nipples instead of mine.
I also dated a guy who I actually found somewhat repelling at first and ended up having amazing sex with him for two years. He was willing to play, experiment and a few weeks after we had sex the first time was usually walking in the door with a full erection. Our days were full of innuendo and I got to see him as a very attractive man after all.
If I were Gift Horse, I would find out how much "this girl" likes him. It appears that he likes the sex appeal to be played up and a bit of tease going on. If she likes him well enough, that's not that hard for a girl to do really with a bit of a headstart, "how about you skip the stockings under that skirt for tonight?" or something.
How do you know if someone likes you well enough? I once had to sit in the pub for 20 minutes over a plate with one last dry rib while the guy was hanging about somewhere. It turned out to be a test. May be you can come up with something better!
Re: Not Just Jealous, I wonder if "reckless Casanova" was originally "man-whore", or more colorfully "stupid man-whore". That was my guess for the redacted phrase, anyway.
Re: Gift Horse, I've changed my mind about people, though usually it's in the negative direction. It's a lot easier to lose interest than to gain it.
I think, though, the real question he was asking is "Is it realistic to expect to land someone who's completely hot, not completely crazy, and a fantastic person?" And for a lot of people the answer is "Yes, it is unrealistic, especially as you get older, so unless you are willing to risk what could be a very long wait, you might need to adjust your definition of what 'hot' is."
Not everyone ends up marrying someone with whom they're 100% happy with, but it's a hell of a lot easier for someone's looks to grow on you than their lack of brains, or fits of madness. And I don't agree with Miss Info that it's "you can’t intellectualize what’s biological", because I think attraction isn't 100% biology, but involves intellect and spirit and lots of other things. There actually is some choice involved.
I think there is a distinction between the sexes in the area of 'attraction'. Not to generalise, but 'generally' men view attraction as physical. They need to immediately fancy someone in order to find them attractive. Women, subtle creatures that we are, view brains and wit as highly attractive, and can often fall head over heels for a guy we at first found repellent. And I agree with Miss Information, attraction is biological; it's just that men and women are biologically different in that sense. I think the guy in letter two is not going to get over this lack of attraction. The dynamic is set already between those two. It actually isn't that hard to find someone you want to jump and who stimulates you emotionally/cerebrally, but he might wants to widen his net to find her. And try to find the sexy in straightforward.
I dated someone I wasn't 100% attracted to for nearly 3 years. At first I overlooked it because he treated me so well and initially we had a lot of fun together. But somewhere around a year and a half/two years, when I started realizing that we didn't actually connect on a deeper level, his appearance became increasingly hard to overlook. I'm not saying the guy was disgusting-looking or anything, but I couldn't look at him and honestly find him "hot". As the months went on he became absolutely repellent to me.
I am now in a 2 year strong relationship with a man who I find smoking-hot. I could wax eloquent about his devastatingly sexy smile and beautiful blue eyes for hours. I still get "tingles" from holding his hand as we walk down the street. When I wake up in the morning and get to snuggle closer to him, I feel I'm the luckiest woman in the world.
So my advice to gift horse would be to hold out for it... there's nothing better than being in a relationship where your partner satisfies those needs for you. Quite frankly, when people "settle" I find it doesn't work out in the long run as your discontent must rear its ugly head sooner or later- hurting well-meaning partners in the process.
It's quite telling that everything that Gift Horse cites as an attribute ("cool job, smart friends, and a killer apartment... and dog") are all just superficial attachments. They're not about the lady herself at all. Do her a favour and let her find someone who wouldn't care if she lived in a cardboard box.
@Emily Thom: Actually, from what I've observed, the biological component is just as strong in both sexes. To make a casual generalization, in men, the dominant component is visual; in women, it's olfactory (smell). Obviously there are a lot of other aspects, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard (straight) women credit a man's smell with their desire for him.
If anything, I'd have said that women seem much more binary, "either-or" about it than men. The majority of women I know say they decide right away whether they're attracted to someone or not (and aren't likely to change their minds), whereas many men I know are theoretically willing to sleep with just about anybody who they perceive as above average, but are very picky about the intangibles when it comes to starting a serious relationship.
I tend to agree with NU: We need more information here. Is it a visual thing, only? Have they jumped into bed, and it wasn't satisfying? Have they jumped into bed half a dozen times, and it's never satisfying? There's a learning curve here. Yes, in a perfect world, we'd be instantly attracted to someone, and then it would be smoking hot from the first kiss, and then grow in time to a deep contentment and desire to share one's life with the other person. But the road in real life can be bumpy. I wouldn't give up here until I'd determined that the sexual chemistry -- after several goes -- simply isn't there. Someone whom you like that much otherwise shouldn't be given up on without fully exploring -- you don't want to regret in five years pulling the trigger too fast and wondering "what if?"
Re. "Not Just Jealous". Erin, you are the best! Heraclitus said "Character is destiny", or something close, and my mom said "a leopard doesn't change its spots." My therapist says that core character is fixed. From my own groundhog day-like experience, I second all that. The writer, as you point out, is feeling the effects of that wisdom, and all signs say DTMFA.
I think the right answer to 'Not Just Jealous' is obvious a three-way. Or really it might take a whole series of three-ways to work out all of the issues here.
RE: S.F., The original phrase was "reckless slut", which was meant in contrast to "responsible slut" or "ethical slut". I'm used to the word as reclaimed and value-neutral, simply indicating a tendancy towards promiscuity. It was the "wreckless" part where the value-judgement came in to play. "Wreckless" in this context means avoiding important, respectful disclosure. It seems most likely that his poor judgement was tied to a lag in developing social skills & therefore understanding sexual etiquette, but we've had conversation after conversation to establish THAT possibility over the likelihood that he knew better and was simply a cavalier jerk (though it's likely a combination-- that he knew better and was an awkward jerk).
As for the lady, while she's not my type (the three-way wouldn't help out much here), it does seem like it'd be best to clear the air.
Or "reckless" even. Natch.
re: Gift Horse - I've dated people I'm not attracted to (as in I'm not that interested in sleeping with) before, and it always turns out the same - THEY KNOW YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM. By not ending things with her, you're letting her think that maybe you might be attracted to her someday! Why else would you keep coming around? She might also think that you've got a lot of baggage, and if she helps you through it, you'll get to a point where you two are so in love and whatever. I know this because the guys that I've dated who fall into that category are always incredibly emotionally supportive, and become almost sycophantic if you display affection towards them. You're being mean. Break it off.
@NJJ:
Whoa, whoa. Some major problems here -- are you aware of them?
1) First of all, in what situation could a landlord dictate who lives in your actual apartment? How is your landlord controlling this and not you? How did this woman's name even come up? What did your BF say about this? Is he listening to your concerns and/or having the sense to agree that in this situation, having resentful ex move in is a bad, bad, bad idea? Is he willing to stand up to landlord and say so? Is this even legal?
Bottom line here: if your landlord can dictate who shares walls with you, over your objections, MOVE. And quickly.
2) Has your boyfriend really repudiated his unethical ways? Has he taken the responsibility for determining why he acted this way, and how not to do so again? (By the way, "Yeah, that was unethical. I won't do that again" is not sufficient.) The fact that he left his last partner in a very f-d up manner in order to be with *you* does not bode well --it's just too recent, and real change takes time.
3) Even if your BF really has done the work needed to learn from and not repeat his experiences, you don't seem to think so. In fact, all over your letter are signs that you don't trust him and that the two of you aren't communicating very well. Hint: the question of "is it OK to feel upset by his past indiscretions" is something that the two of you should have long since discussed, and in any healthy relationship he'd be the one asking you how you felt about them, in order to take the lead in convincing you he's changed.
All in all, I think things don't look good. Leave the rental situation, that's for damn sure -- and probably the relationship too.
@Jack: Never take on an advice column. Or maybe a girlfriend.
S.F - I agree with the smell thing, I, for example, don't do one-night stands because the strange male's smell seems too scary and unfamiliar. I need to meet someone several times to get used to it.
However, I believe that the basis of strong and long lasting attraction is not the looks and not the smell but how you react to one another sexual cues and if you can get the tease going. What do you two do BEFORE you start taking your clothes off. For some couples it can be more romantic, for some more confrontational, some need power play and some can really mix it up! Two people willing to play and practice -> attraction.
Example: my roommate and kid are away, I have the place to myself. I mention it to two males. First response: oh, that must be nice for you to relax. Second: oh, and what are you going to do with all that privacy?
Guess who will I have better sex with.
I'm going through something similar with a friend of a friend I've met over the summer. She's nice but I don't feel the spark either. I feel pretty bad about it since I've been on the other side many times.
i'm sorry NJJ but your relationship hasn't got a chance.
@Not Just Jealous:
Erin's advice is spot on for both letters, but a bit more delicate than I would've been. NJJ, re-read your letter again. Especially the part that goes,
"he’s slept with most of our mutual female acquaintances in socially messy ways. He maintained extended sexual relationships with different women who were not aware of each other and remained involved with partners who were openly more emotionally invested in the relationship without communicating his own lack of reciprocity."
Do you honestly think he didn't make THOSE women think he would be exclusive and had changed his ways, too? The only woman this man can have a healthy relationship with is one who doesn't mind his infidelity. You are too good for him and not that woman. Find another guy, like your intuition is warning you to.
Otherwise you're going to have a "The Scorpion and the Frog" moment, sooner or later.
The roommate situation is a very bad idea, and will not work. It sounds like the relationship may not either.
Same for the man with the mildly attractive girlfriend. Move on. I don't understand all these people with their "placeholder" girlfriends and boyfriends.
Go for the spark! I'm a woman, and I do NOT, ever, grow to develop physical attraction where there was none the first instant. People say women can grow to be attracted to someone.... NOT ME. You got it, or you don't.
I have to be honest here, as a guy, attraction is a huge initial part. But I believe I'm old enough and learned enough that a better quality of attraction develops as you learn about the other person. I'm presently in an unrequited love affair with a long term friend(no I haven't told her how I feel, I guess I'll have to write a letter myself)and that love grew out of getting to know her and developing a deep friendship with her. She is hardly the typical date for me. Not that she's unattractive in any way. But through time I have come to find her gorgeous(I have told her that.) And unlike NM, I believe you can develop a physical attraction for someone. At least for me, attraction is pretty cerebral. The first poster NU has a pretty good checklist to go through, but I wouldn't go through it in the first few months. Enjoy the friendship, think about how this person makes you feel. One question I would add to NU's list is how do you feel after spending time with her, like a date or just an afternoon hanging out. Do you feel good? Yes/No
Mildly attractive girlfriend? Geez! Just keep doin' her until you find a chick with a nicer apartment, and a penchant for blow jobs and fmf threesomes. Now, there's a keeper.
you're welcome.
Gift Horse - I've tried a couple times now to date awesome people I wasn't that hot for. Kept hoping something would change. But after 1, 2, 3 years it was the same - still didn't want to fuck them. If the chemistry's not there from the get-go I don't think it's likely it'll come along.
I'm in my thirties too, and I get the 'gotta settle down' feeling, totally - but don't go there unless you're really content with a lifetime of mediocre-to-bad sex.
As far as the differences between me and women, here's my pet theory - men are conditioned by that patriarchal shit to get a sort of charge from 'conquest' that is more about showing off to other people than it is about whether their partner is really attractive to them, so they're more willing to give a woman the benefit of the doubt. Women, who are used to being picky and fending off guys, learn to trust their guts more.
testing testing 1,2,3...
I dated a serial cheater once and even though it was one of the nicest, most loving relationship I'd been in I eventually had to end it. It was my realisation eventually that my morals vs my partners morals just weren't the same.
I do feel that people can change however, perhaps NJJ's boyfriend was too immature to see the impact his behaviour was having. Perhaps that lack of empathy is what is causing their communication problems now.
As for Gift Horse, don't do it. I've dated people who I didn't fancy and ended up thinking there was something wrong with *me*. I felt awkward in bed, my sex drive diminished every day we were together and I never truly felt *settled*. Wait for someone who drives you wild. A few years down the track when you both have busy schedules and a baby on the way he'll be glad you still have that mutual attraction.
re: your response to NJJ, are you high? If you not only don't like someone, but are also projecting everything that worries you about your BF's previous life, you don't think that is going to leak through next time it's her turn to buy toilet paper or she leaves her dishes in the sink? It's hard enough living with people you like. Why don't you just tell her that, bearing in mind the awkwardness, you'd rather not share space with her. Buggered if *I'd* want to live with someone who explicitly told me they didn't want to. She doesn't want a share house to blow up in her face any more than your landlord.
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hello I need comments, right now im getting over this ...I been with my fiance for a few years but his past that isnt to bad it bugs me, I wanted to loose my virginity with my hubby and that he will loose it with me but i dont know what to do because yeah i gave him mine, but he told me about four years ago he had an encounter...well more than 5 with this girl that has a bad reputation, he is a good man and it was hard to imagine him giving that pleasure and that, that means a lot to me, to just that girl...and like he said just to F..** it makes me sad... he tells me that he never liked her , and of coarse he never loved her, but he did so much more stuff with her than what he does with me,... he will go on trips with her and do stuff in his car, which i get in know and sometimes I cant avoid it but i feel repulsed, physically sick..please help he has changed and that girl he said it wasnt his girlfriend but he confuses me a lot...please any advice.