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May 2, 2012
Please Advise: I haven't slept with my wife in three years.
There are dry spells, and then there are small deserts.
Each week, the inbox of our venerable advice columnist, Miss Information, is flooded with queries. And although she makes a valiant effort, she can't answer them all. To deal with the surplus, we've decided to turn to you. So, don your spectacles and help this gentleman out — give him advice in the comments below.
Dear Nerve,
My wife and I have been married almost twenty-seven years, and we're compatible in nearly every way, except that over the last two to three years, she's had no libido. This has stemmed from various medical issues, and that's why I'm still here and haven't cheated in almost three years. But everyone has their limits.
I'd been strongly considering a FWB type situation or some other NSA arrangement, and so, about nine months ago, she and I sat down and I told her what was going on. I wasn't trying to be hurtful, but I thought it best to explain myself. She asked that we go to counseling. I agreed, and the counselor asked me to put my plans on hold until we had the opportunity to discuss the situation further, a condition to which I also agreed.
Three months into counseling, we had discussed everything except the issue that got us both there. I told them both that if we continued to dance around the issue, I wouldn't be coming again. We didn't, and, to make a long story short, we both just stopped going.
It's now been six months, and everything's still the same. I've tried talking to my wife time and time again, but she literally leaves the room when I bring up the topic, and therapy was a dead end. What else can I do? At this point, I've honestly tried — would I be such a bad person for giving up and trying to find a NSA situation? Where would I look? What should I do?
— Frustrated in So Cal
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Commentarium (84 Comments)
Oh lord, I have no advice for you. But I'm frustrated in So. Cal too for much the same reason. It would be a lot easier if I didn't love and respect my husband; I know that much. It's only been six months for us and I haven't taken the brave step of communicating my frustration with him. I wish you the best.
He obviously knows it's an issue but he won't address it until he is forced to, and that happens when you ask him to, tell him you need to speak to him when he has 5-10 minutes free, than just say, " do you not think i'm sexy anymore?" he will say either "why do you ask that", OR " of course I do, why do you ask that?" than you say, and stay calm, than start the conversation. It's the only way to start, if it doesn't go as you like, e-mail me (only 1/4 kidding, sorry)
Well, thank you for the advice, even though I haven't give you any. I'll keep you posted about the email, ha.
Are you guys raising kids? If not, then why aren't you thinking about divorce?
Finding NSA/FWB is hard enough for single people, but married & cheating? Not easy to find a partner then. Except maybe a cheating wife...and is that a situation you want to be part of? If you had an "open" marriage you might manage to find an extra partner.
Some would say that by not having sex, and not even talking about it, she's breaking her vows to you. But rather than respond in kind, why not just divorce? The relationship doesn't seem to be working for you.
Actually finding NSA/FWB situation can be quite easy for married men. You'd be surprised how many women (and men) find illicit situations sexy just because they are illicit. Just don't approach this kind of thing like a "real" relationship and don't try to turn it into one.
Medical issues are an excuse for not wanting sex. Medical issues are no excuse for not addressing the needs of someone you claim to love. I think that her refusal to address the issue with you is more of a dealbreaker than the lack of sex is.
I'm curious as to what these medical issues are. Could the wife be pursuing alternate treatments with her doctor, could there be ways for them to be intimate without putting too much of a burden on her, are all questions that should have been discussed in therapy and apparently weren't. I thing the real problem here is, as you point out, that she just doesn't care enough about his needs to even acknowledge the issue.
Perhaps she's already pursuing an alternate treatment with her doctor. (Zing!)
I think cheating is justified in this case, as long as there is no end in sight for the medical issues. You've done everything you can to work through this, and your wife is unwilling to even discuss the issue. I don't see how it's any better to put your sick wife through the emotional and financial devastation of divorce than to discretely fulfill your sexual needs outside your marriage. Lifelong relationships boil down to a lot more than sexual fidelity and it seems a shame to throw away over two decades of partnership just to conform to ideal of strict monogamy within marriage, which is honestly unrealistic for most partnerships.
"I don't see how it's any better to put your sick wife through the emotional and financial devastation of divorce than to discretely fulfill your sexual needs outside your marriage."
...unless, of course, she's counting on the possibility that his infidelity will give her the upper hand in the divorce she knows she wants, but isn't willing to initiate.
That may seem paranoid, but it just sounds like there's so much deep-seated resentment in this marriage that the potential for extremely destructive behavior is very real. I'd get a divorce, or work towards an open marriage, but I'd be very cautious about cheating.
(Also: what kind of a shitty person would you need to be to walk out of the room when your spouse is trying to communicate with you about something that's important to them? I really, really wish someone would publish an interview with one of these people, because they're constantly showing up as antagonists in advice columns, but their behavior seems so inscrutable and sadistic. I've only known one person who had his spouse do that to him, and after many years, she finally admitted that she'd married him because she expected him to get a big inheritance -- money that didn't end up materializing -- and she hated him for not making her rich and giving her a lavish lifestyle. Their divorce followed very, very rapidly thereafter.)
In my, totally fallible opinion, she's probably walking out on these conversations because it's just to painful for her to consider. She can't force herself to have sex, but the idea of her husband sleeping with someone else is heartbreaking. I don't think this justifies her behavior, but because the author describes their relationship as happy in all other respects I don't automatically assume she's being malicious. When a partner behaves this way, I think they are essentially pushing their spouse to cheat without being forced to acknowledge to themselves what's going on. You're right that he should be cautious because if they do divorce, his infidelity will likely be held against him regardless of circumstances.
I agree with everything you wrote, babyjane.
I don't think fidelity is a consideration in divorce anymore.
Infidelity is certainly taken into consideration when determining alimony, custody rights, and so forth. If you spend money on the person with whom you're having an affair, you can potentially be sued for it. And that's not counting the judge's own personal beliefs, which are certainly going to play into his/her judgment; most judges don't look too favorably upon a "cheating" spouse.
Sorry, I spoke imprecisely: I don't think you can't usually be sued per se for money spent on an affair, but it can be factored into the divorce judgment.
california is a no fault divorce state. infidelity cannot be taken into account when determining alimony, custody rights, and so forth. It matters not one wit.
If your wife isn't up for penis-in-vagina stuff, that's fair enough, but have you asked her about oral sex, you masturbating while she holds you, handjobs, and other sex acts that don't entirely require her libido to be functioning in order for her to participate? If your wife refuses to consider any of these options, then I'd say that the problem is more with intimacy than sex.
Speaking of sex and therapy, have you and the Mrs. considered a trip to a sex therapist. It's hard to dance around the issue of sex when it is unabashedly the reason for your office visit.
Don't consider FWB unless you have exhausted the above options.
To the OP: I suspect something's going on with your wife that goes beyond medical issues. Her behavior is, to put it bluntly, inexcusable -- not the absence of sex, but her refusal to communicate or listen in any significant way. It's hard not to imagine that she's full of incredibly intense resentment towards you, whether or not it's deserved (and it may well be wholly undeserved), because I can't imagine treating someone that way unless I really hated them.
Personally, I'd get out. But then, I'd have gotten out as soon as the communication stopped and the leaving-the-room began. No one who acts that way is "compatible" with anyone; it's behavior unworthy of a teenager, let alone a middle-aged adult, and shouldn't be tolerated or have excuses made for it. No matter what she's going through, there are people who have been through worse and yet managed to keep acting like human beings.
I've noticed something about you in your prolific commenting, AAC. Whether you're replying to a comment or an article, you never just reply to the comment itself or refute it with logic. You always ascribe an emotional state to that person, even if you've never seen or met them before and lack any context for your judgment, and you base it on what you "imagine" they "must" be feeling based on your own experiences. Also, the emotional state you assume is almost always extremely, almost comically negative (i.e. they "must" be coming from a place of douchey smugness, resentfulness, hatred, self-righteous indignation etc.) And ironically, you often reply with the exact level of extreme negativity that you excoriate in others (i.e. if you're accusing someone of smug high-handedness, you invariably take the smuggest and most high-handed tone possible to point it out.)
I'm not trying to insult you or start a lame comment war. I probably won't even visit this thread again. It's just something I've noticed, and I'd like to gently point out a few things:
1) Your opinions and experiences of others are completely subjective, and are filtered through your own perceptions. They don't represent empirical reality.
2) There are no tone indicators on the internet. You have no idea whether the person typing (or even more removed, the person they're typing about) is angry, self-righteous, vague, distracted, calm or bemused. Assuming everyone is an angry jerk without the context of tonality says more about you than it does about them.
3) There are 7 billion people in this world, with at least 7 billion different perceptions and opinions between them. Some of them are very different from yours, and many of these differences have validity. Try to listen to people who disagree with you every now and then without immediate knee-jerk judgment. It's good for the soul.
4) Even if you disagree with someone completely, you can still respect the rules of civil discourse and disagree without name-calling and....ehfuckit, scrap that one. This is the internet.
Again, this isn't a personal attack. I don't know you and have zero investment in your posting habits either way, but I wanted to unload that before I roll my eyes, sigh, and rapidly scroll past yet another one of your "wall of text" ad hominem screeds.
And one quick addendum, lest you think I'm insulting you: you actually sound like a pretty thoughtful, passionate person with some good ideas (I would never leave such a detailed reply to someone I thought was merely trolling/flaming). But the language you use to express them is often so polarizing and insulting that it's difficult to imagine any rational, reasonable person taking you seriously.
Or maybe you are a polite, well-spoken person in real life and just use the internet to let your id blow off steam. If so, carry on and don't mind if a lot of people just ignore you.
DTMFA.
It's pretty awesome that after three years, you still love her enough not to have walked out. But it's kind of sad that you're the only one looking for a solution - perhaps she's so disgusted by sex now that she can't even bear to think about it?
I don't think the solution is, as other commenters wrote, to demand non-vaginal sex acts of her, because they can be anything from boring to gross to perform when one's not turned on - and I bet her bored getting you off will only be slightly less unfulfilling than no sex at all. So the thing is you both need a way to turn her back on. Recently, I've been reading stuff about" orgasmic meditation", and it seems to do a good job at putting women in touch with their sexual selves. Here's a youtube link to give you a general idea at first:
http://youtu.be/s9QVq0EM6g4
Hopefully this can help! I wish you luck and patience (which you obviously have, I mean, 3 years!) solving this.
Do not waste another day let alone three years, leave her citing irreconcilable differences.
Make your life extraordinary as you'll be food for the earthworms one day!
LW,
I'm sorry that you're in this position. Most (not all) married people want a healthy sex life and consider it a key part of a marriage. You are one of them, and you're not getting that.
As to what to do: Since she has already voted with her feet by refusing to discuss the issue and leaving the room when it's discussed, there are two options open to you if you want things to change. (If you don't want anything to change, then you should just stay married, but that's not an option you seem to want.)
1) Divorce;
2) Continuing the marriage with you finding a sex partner on the side;
In my opinion, you have to have the even-harder conversation with your wife. The one in which you tell here why you love her and how much you are still attracted to her, but that, for you, sex is important and it's no longer tenable for you to go without it, much less with the idea that the status quo will not change. Then you tell your wife that those above are, at this point, the only two options, and that she has to choose which she can live with. You grant her the right to make an informed decision about what to do next. And then you set a firm deadline by which she needs to decide. (In other words, the only option that I am saying is ethically not justifiable is going outside the marriage without her knowledge or consent. )
If I were you, I wouldn't throw "let's go back to marriage counseling" into the mix, as it can become a way to stall things indefinitely. But that's your call.
Please check out MarriedManSexLife.com. It is a blog aimed at people in your exact situation. There is also a book "Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay. I highly recommend it; it has improved my sex life and given me a whole new understanding of desire.
Jeez. My husband hasn't felt like having sex in a week and I'm frustrated and upset by it. 3 years? No. Nonononono. That's grounds for divorce. Medical issues are a reason why her libido might be low or non-existent. It's not a reason why she has deprived you of a fundamental aspect of a loving marriage for so long. If that EVER happened to me, you can bet that I'd be the one pushing my doctors and therapists to help me find a solution, and in the meantime, giving lots of other kinds of attention to my husband. And if doing other things was too difficult, then I guess I'd give him the go ahead to find a FWB, provided that there were no emotional strings attached.
Speaking from experience, there are "medical issues" that can severely reduce your self-esteem and sense of sexuality, especially if the issue involves parts of yourself that are tied to your sexual persona. Something like breast cancer with a lumpectomy or mastectomy is notorious for causing women to lose their confidence and sense of sexuality. Those emotional issues gone untreated just get deeper and deeper and turn into an illness themselves. I would also imagine any surgeries or cancers in the vagina/uterus would have the same side effects. If the parts of your body that define your sexuality and sexiness are compromised by a traumatic medical event, it takes hard work to redefine your sexual identity, feel sexy, and desire sex again.
That's why she needs to talk to him--both of their experiences/desires are legitimate. But she's not talking at all.
When I was in high school (Catholic), my religion teacher flat-out told us that if you don't have sex with your spouse, your marriage will die. Not in a women-better-submit way (it was a post-Vatican II progessive school, plus the class was coed, anyway), but that a loving marriage is one that in which the partners use sex to affirm their love and affection for one another.
I have found in my own life, that the things I most dread, are the things that I really, really should talk about--and while the talking is painful, once the discussion has been had, things are so much better. I wonder if he would still want to go outside the marriage if she were more interested in communicating with him.
I agree! Thanks for adding that caveat! It seems like the issue has gotten so deep for LW's wife that it has turned into a clinical issue that needs to be treated, for their marriage health and her mental/emotional health. And clearly, as your teacher said, for most marriages, physical/emotional intimacy go hand in hand. A lack of sex (or touch) will inevitably push emotional distance too.
It just thought I'd share with cg some of the side effects of certain illnesses that are rarely talked about. Sometimes people are forced to completely reinvent their whole self and it can be too big to face. In a state of emotional stability, of course you think you know what you'd do, but it's just not the case.
Sylvana, I completely understand the side effects of certain illnesses, such as cancer and depression. I've experienced some of them. I know how emotions affect libido. However, it's still not an excuse to deprive your partner of a loving, sexual relationship. It's not her fault that she doesn't feel sexual, but it is her fault that she refuses to discuss it or seek additional help for it. Or let him attend to his needs elsewhere.
Try a different therapist? Like any group of people, some are great, some suck.
Also good advice, and not necessarily just a stalling tactic. It sounds like the first wasn't getting the job done; this is clearly an issue of communication first and foremost, which makes it an issue where a therapist could be a real boon.
Yes, absolutely try another therapist. Not everyone is good, and not everyone is the right fit. The first one you tried was one or the other. Don't give up on therapy (or your marriage) before you've tried another one. (And best wishes for a mutually satisfactory resolution.)
Yes, from much experience, some do suck, some are awesome, and there is everybody in-between. Try another and get there as fast as you can.
Wow, this is a totally difficult situation. You have my sincere empathy. I really do not know how people make marriages work. I'm not wired that way. I would say 3 years is plenty of time without some physical love. You are entitled to a solution of some kind. Evil Me would say ditch the bitch. I am probably not your best bet for marriage advice.
Many people are willing to divorce after 27 years of marriage.
60's and dating sounds fun though.
Go on a "golf trip" and see a prostitute.
It seems pretty clear that you have chosen to stay married because of your sense of loyalty and honor, and perhaps because of those medical issues you didn't clarify... Thoughts of divorce certainly would bring feelings of guilt: why lay more burden on her? But it's also pretty clear you are both suffering anyway. If she will not talk about it at home but is still interested in counseling, then shop around, as someone else said, find a sex therapist or other ways to help her libido. However, I get the sense that what's screaming between the lines here is that you have moved on. After 27 years and her medical issues, I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to open yourself up to that actual truth. Refusing to continue counseling and also seriously considering cheating are not moves one would make in a marriage they truly wanted to fix. So, you can sort out all the advice here and fight for it - if you want to fight for it. However it's also time to prioritize your feelings: is the issue really about sex? Start thinking about separating and don't cheat! Reframe your conversations with your wife to be about divorce and she how that feels for both of you. To me, that is the emotionally mature and honorable thing to do. Cheating would just complicate the issue and cause the demise of the marriage to center on the act of cheating rather than the root problem. Others have said that she has broken your marriage vows by refusing sex. I don't know your religious or ethical beliefs, so I don't presume that you agree with that. But what is certain is that you owe it to your wife and yourself to talk about what's really going on and the growing distance between you two. You may find she feels the same way. And even if she doesn't, you still have the right to leave. Who knows, you might be able to stay friends. More than anything, I'd start seeing a licensed counselor yourself. He or she would be able to guide you to acknowledge your deeper feelings in a much more professional way than us hacks on the internet.
I apologize for not paragraphing.
What are these medical issues? Sounds like an excuse. Sex is part of marriage. However, you don't get to have it by just showing up. Make sure you're not being a loser.
Dude, you need to force the issue.You need to talk to her and have a discussion about what's going on. While everyone else is saying to just divorce her, I'm getting the feeling that isn't something you really want to do, and it also doesn't seem like you really want to an NSA relationship.
I don't know the best way to go about making this conversation happen. Ultimatums are risky, but it might just be the kick in the ass your wife needs to realize the importance of the situation. She seems to be sticking her head in the sand and hoping it all goes away.
Maybe find a different therapist? A therapist that won't ignore your issues would be a step in the right direction. It might be best to have the conversation in a supportive environment.
Summary: Before doing anything rash, make the conversation happen.
I am in the same situation...just not sexually attracted to each other anymore...but raising children...in a committed relationship, etc. Asked to have an affair...we have agreed that is an acceptable compromise as long as certain precautions are adhered to and that it is handled with discretion. Its working...a little sad that it isn't with him...but better than the alternative. If he declines your request, understand...you are going to cheat anyway and end your marrige.
I'm surprised no one else has picked up the clue-phone here: I have a feeling you WERE discussing the issues that are keeping her from having sex with you when you were at the therapist's office. Her leaving the room isn't kosher, but neither was your announcement that you were going to give up on therapy if the solution to the boinking wasn't made apparent in due haste. I'd like to ask you to enumerate all the romantic and awesome stuff you've done to help her feel like you want to strengthen the intimacy between you - surprises, romantic dinners, things you did that she's been after you to do for lo these many years (I'll bet there's a list, if you think about it), etc. You didn't say anything about it for 3 years, you went to counseling for 3 months, and now you've been in a 6 month stalemate. There's way more to this than medical issues, on BOTH sides. The only side you can change is yours.
"neither was your announcement that you were going to give up on therapy if the solution to the boinking wasn't made apparent in due haste."
It's a shame you have to ruin your post by deliberately misrepresenting the LW's statement. He quit because, after three months of counseling, they weren't even TALKING about the issue that brought them there in the first place.
That's a far cry from "fix this now or I quit", and the husband has a right to insist that the sexual issue itself be discussed alongside the other issues that might come up. A good counselor would've insisted on it. Otherwise the counseling sessions themselves can easily become yet another way of putting her husband off and refusing to address the issue -- yet another defense, in other words, against intimacy.
Otherwise I partly agree with your post, but I don't know...I'm kind of tired of the trope that if a wife stops having sex, it's always because the husband hasn't been a good enough husband, hasn't been loving enough, romantic enough, or whatever. Some people are just assholes who get off on hurting other people (overtly or covertly) to make up for the disappointments of their own lives. Others have unreasonable expectations, and aren't able to forgive their spouses for not meeting them. We don't need to tell EVERY husband who writes in that "it's probably your fault".
My point was that they were discussing their issues with the therapist, and the issues they were discussing were very much connected to why they weren't having sex. His post sounds like he's saying "we don't have sex because of her medical issues" - and I'm not saying it's all his fault, but that it isn't all hers either.
Speaking from experience: I would point out that there's a difference between 1. unloading your needs on your wife (who's already dealing with "medical issues" and, if I may guess, 27 years of responsibility for caring for her family's needs); and 2. bringing up the discussion in a positive way. The first approach no doubt causes a great deal of anxiety for your wife. The second might actually get you somewhere, if you were to simply ask her "Honey, tell me how you feel about this situation" without putting the responsibility for your happiness on her shoulders.
Also, please *don't* ask her to do non-P-in-V acts when she's not turned on. Letting your partner use your body for sexual pleasure when you're not into it isn't like absentmindedly loading the dishwasher - it's more like getting molested.
The title of the article is "I haven't slept with my wife in three years". Why do you feel the need to admonish the LW about "molesting" his wife? She probably makes him feel shitty enough as it is.
Also, people are different about "absentmindedly loading the dishwasher." I'm perfectly happy to blow my partner if he's horny and I'm not in the mood. For me with him, it's an emotionally neutral, mildly strenuous act not unlike giving a back rub (and yes, I'm female). Even if I'm not remotely turned on. I also did this for my now-ex back when my libido was completely decimated by the Pill; the feeling was a combination of boredom and virtue, certainly not molestation.
There is no way I'd take it upon myself to blow my man if I were not into it and turned on myself. I wouldn't feel molested--since I'd be doing all the work, I'd feel like an unpaid prostitute. Guys: if your lady friend is not in the mood, turn on the interwebs, that's what it's for.
I am pretty sure this is the same 50 something, so cal man with a wife with no libido due to medical problems that was looking for a nsa relationship on the Nerve dating confessional board a couple weeks back... I have no advise, just that observation.
Ok, I am gonna say some really harsh but real things. Just giving you a heads up.
1. OP, what are the medical conditions?
2. I say put your foot down. When she leaves the room follow her to the next. She's your wife bro. There is NOTHING you two shouldn't be able to talk about no matter how hard it is. And in this instance, I am not talking about you getting your sexual needs fulfilled. I am talking about her lack of communication to her. If she can't talk to you, fuck you, or be around you then why is she with you?!? Why are you with her? You love her? Are you sure? Are you sure you aren't in love with who she used to be? What if who she used to be doesn't come back?
The truth is people change. "medical conditions" is too vague. She could be cheating on you. You could have changed and she doesn't like what she sees. You can't know. The only thing you can do is explain your position and have her explain hers.
Even if she doesn't want to have sex, she would give it up to you JUST to make you happy. I know it sounds fucked up, but everyone does it. Women and men. If I have had a 28 hour day, and someone needs some love, I will take off my pants and do the best I can even though I know its gonna be pretty shitty in comparison to when I am not exhausted. But 3 years?!?!
where is the EFFORT?!?
Be real with yourself. I commend you for being a real man about this. "This is what I need, because if this need is not met by you, I will have to find it somewhere else, even though I love you and need you to meet this need."
Lots of people may think this is fucked up but I support your cause man.
Also, find a new counselor. Someone who will actually go into the issue that got you there the FIRST DAY. You are not children. You are adults. If your wife can't face something like this with you, then what is she good for?
Maybe I'm just being a 25 year-old and don't know about some things, but what kind of medical issue does that for three years? Paralysis? Aren't there other things one could do together that would be not as good but still get the job done? To me it sounds like she doesn't care, because (in my opinion) sometimes you may not be super up for it but you do it anyways for your partner because of love or whatever. If she loved you like she should, she would know that.
My first thought was post traumatic stress from a sexual assault, actually. Mostly, because that's my situation in my marriage. My partner is a rape survivor and can go through long spells of no interest in sex.
Chemotherapy can alter some people's physiology for years. Paralysis or maybe some kind of chronic pain?
In my case, I'm willing to continue on in the relationship because my partner is willing to put so much word towards therapy and addressing the issue. It can be a real blow to my self-esteem, but it does seem to get better if we talk about it.
I love the way one can always depend on some women to crawl out of the woodwork and blame the man no matter what. This is a clear-cut case. She won't fuck and won't talk about it.
The actual cause of the disappearance of libido might not be her fault. Once, when a girlfriend of mine went on the Pill, she didn't even want me to touch her. She stopped taking it right away and we turned to other methods, but it still took a few months for her to recover.
Refusing to talk about, though, that is the wife's fault. The LW should just dump her. Life is too short for her kind of uncaring bullshit.
Talk is great and I agree that you two need to address this.
But if you vows were 'in sickness and in health" and something about 'forsaking all others', then honor your vows and stand by your sick wife.
Your wife heard the initial request to find a FWB. And never gave you an ultimatum where you were forbidden from cheating. That is as close as you will get to permission from her. It sounds to me like she cannot bear to say "Do it" but she also cannot with a clear conscience forbid you. This will be a difficult choice for you and require you to suspend some of your sense of morals. As long as you are discreet it sounds like she is giving you the "Don't Ask; Don't Tell" option.
You know, I agree with Do It's assessment. After 18 years of marriage, I definitely have close to zero interest in sex with my husband, while he's still hot for me. I find it hard to feign interest, although I do maybe once every 2 weeks--and we did in fact once go through a dry spell of 2 years ourselves after our son was born.
All I can say is, family life can be devastating to a relationship. Stress, tiredness, disagreements over things. In our case also, I just happen to have a low libido, and it doesn't help that while my husband chooses to eat Big Macs and drive everywhere, I work out regularly and am in great shape. I almost want to gain 50lbs so he might leave me the hell alone.
That said, we get along wonderfully and I love him dearly! If you haven't been in a long-term relationship (ie. over 10 years), I don't think you could ever understand how much love, and a curiously near-total lack of desire can co-exist... and yet they do.
Upshot from someone in a situation not unlike yours, my advice is, yeah, I think she gave you a hall pass. Just be discreet, use protection, and don't ever embarrass her or waste yur shared financial resources on this other person.
Medical issues are horrible, sometimes. I can understand I had cancer, chemotherapy, chronic nerve pain and numbness. Also, I lost both breast, my hair, and my female parts. I have had to tell my bf no but he never went longer than two weeks between a hand job, blow job, or talking dirty, because I felt our relationship and need to show affection and love were more important than my sickness. I may have been bored but I'm sure he was bored watching me sleep through injections. Also write her a letter to discuss issues too hard for her to talk about face to face.
I apologize for not replying sooner, I did not know this was here. I will try to cover all. The medical issues are severe back pain (legit) that has caused weight gain and some depression, nothing she has tried to do for the back pain is working and the prognosis is for more of the same. She is not contemplating divorce, I'm not naive we just care about each other too much, we have a 20 yr old daughter in college out of state, she is not getting it elsewhere, she "walks out of the room" may be too harsh, but she does shoot down the conversation as we've already discussed this and there is nothing new to discuss. I do appreciate the feedback and will continue to monitor and reply.
2 things don't make sense to me: Medical condition or not, why is she not able to *talk* about it? That has nothing to do with sex. That has to do with 2 people who are meant to love one another. Second thing is - as another reader pointed out - libido or not, there are things a person can do for their loved one sexually that doesn't require their libido to be in full force - oral sex, handjob, *an effort to please the one you love*.
It's sadly perhaps time for some sort of ultimatum. Not in the form of *screw me*, but rather *let's please TALK about this*.
If she doesn't want to do any of that I think she forfeits her right to be upset with you if you go for a little somethin' somethin' on the side. Because you, unlike she, have seem to have made an effort to sort out your problems (not to mention having THREE YEARS of patience...)
Under no circumstances is cheating justified in a marriage. Marriage is, "for richer or poorer, in sickness and health," not, "as long as I get sex I'll be happy." Your happiness is completely irrelevant in this situation. I would recommend doubling down. Love her more, care for her more, trust and talk with her more. Tell her that FWB is not an option; that your marriage is a hill worth dying on. I think you'll do more to deepen the relationship by committing to it more, and thereby receiving more happiness than you'll find outside of it.
it seems there are so many with a need to know as to medical issue, she was injured and has severe back pain which has caused other pain issues, however while they can be worked around the long-term pain has caused depression, weight-gain, etc. I want to stress, that we are committed to each other, I thought discussing the FWB option in a non-confrontational, non-threatening way would some how give her some relief, I was wrong, it hasn't been an issue as I haven't pursued it or addressed it with her since. I will not force her to do anything she isn't comfortable doing, have never done that with any woman and will not do it now. To "Are You?" yes I am. I appreciate the feedback and ideas, the consensus seems to be 1. new therapist 2. divorce or split (not gonna happen) 3. I should try harder 4. cheat (long distant 4th) well I will ponder and try to discuss, will report back later, and for those ladies in the same boat (I miss the lil man in the boat) feel free to use the above ideas as well. However when I report back if all is the same I will be asking for e-mail addresses :) thx again
I don't understand how you decided those were your four options. I read posts suggesting you clearly communicate your intention to have your sexual needs met elsewhere. It's not cheating once you've been honest about that. The hardest option (the one that will probably lead to confrontation, tears, arguments) is the kindest one. And why isn't divorcing an option? SHE needs to be given that option, once you communicate your intention to pursue a sexual relationship with somebody else. Write her a letter. A long, thoughtful letter. She'll read it, trust me.
it's not an option because neither she nor I are interested in it as an option, we communicate very well on most everything, this particular issue has been rough but it's not as if we don't care about each other or don't love each other, if she wanted divorce or separation as an option she would say so, we have discussed at one point or another every option
Have you thought about sitting her down and giving her a clear, yet gentle ultimatum?
Intimacy and communication are two of the most BASIC needs a marriage needs to survive and be healthy, and right now she's refusing to meet either of those needs for you. I admire your commitment to the marriage, but if she is equally committed she should WANT to find a compromise to make you happy.
These are things you have the right to bring up with her, and she has the obligation to listen and hear you out as part of the commitment she made to love, honor and cherish you. I can't imagine denying my husband's need for intimacy for THREE WHOLE YEARS, and refusing to even hear him out when he expresses his frustration. Something is deeply broken in your marriage. If even therapy has failed I'd say it's beyond time for more extreme measures. Sit her down and tell her that if she cares about you and the marriage, she must hear you out, and if she walks away, she is turning her back on you and the marriage. Because that's what she's doing.
And then tell her, gently but clearly, everything - everything - that is on your mind. No amount of advice from strangers will substitute for painfully and necessarily hashing out this mess with her. My sincere best wishes to you.
You said you thought asking for a fwb would give her some relief, but in all reality that option only gives you relief. I do commend you for wanting to save the marriage. Please know, I am not trying to judge you, or the frustration you are feeling. I have been celibate for years, I miss sex a lot. So, I do understand. I don't have any answers as how to fix it, but I can tell you how I might feel if I were in your wife's shoes... I am in chronic pain, I've gained weight and don't feel attractive anymore, I feel shame and failure that I can't keep the man I love sexually satisfied, my husband of nearly 30 yrs told me he wants to have sex with other women, but it's ok and I shouldn't be bothered because he doesn't care about them. It's no surprise your wife is depressed, my self esteem would be wrecked in that scenario. I very well might shutdown and give up after the fwb question, both because; it would hurt too much to say yes and admit I was no longer enough anymore for him and yet, I'd also feel obligated to say yes in order to keep the husband I love. It's a no win situation for her, she loses either way. I would suggest trying a new therapist. You have more issues that just the lack of sex. You are going to have to foster intimacy and trust again, you love each other, so it's worth trying for. Please don't just cheat, as another commenter said, she deserves the chance to leave if she can't live with her husband sleeping with other women. Even if she does give you the go ahead to have a fwb, know that she may always resent it and it may lead to even bigger problems down the road. Good luck, I hope you both can find your way past this hurdle with out hurting each other too much in the process.
> it would hurt too much to say yes and admit I was no longer enough anymore for him and yet, I'd also feel obligated to say yes in order to keep the husband I love.
Denial of the facts and refusing to deal with a problem doesn't spare anyone any real amount of suffering and pain, it only prolongs the suffering and often makes it worse. 0% fulfillment isn't "no longer enough" - that's comparing a diet and total starvation.
Gaining weight isn't a neutral behavior with respect to back pain - it can only aggravate it and make it worse.
Loving someone means wanting to make them happy, not keep them all to yourself regardless of the consequences for them.
The kindest thing I think he can do if he wants to keep the marriage is to pursue relief outside the marriage but not tell his wife. Without the pressure of sex with him, their emotional and institutional relationship can continue and even return to what it was 4+ years ago, and she won't need to suffer the guilt and shame of having to constantly deny him. She won't need to dwell on what he's doing with the other women if she thinks he's attending a motorcycle club meeting with the guys and has a "healthy alternative outlet for his energies" (that whole phrase is a laugh). This would be the only form of denial of reality that would actually be sparing her some heartache - if she refused to catch on.
Being denied sex is at least as painful for men emotionally as being cheated on without reason is for women - it's just one of the ways the sexes differ in how they are constructed.
So now this article is stealing from Dan Savagae's column, AND changing the title to "Dear Nerve"? Did the writer send the letter in to Nerve, or to The Stranger and Dan Savage? If it's the latter, then this is BS.
Seattle Girl, I don't understand what you are referring to, please explain to me, thx. I actually posted the situation under confessions as someone previously asked, I was explaining the situation in a bit less detail and asking 1. for opinions and ideas 2. if anyone else was in a similar situation and was interested in being a FWB, well #2 was shot down quickly and there were some constructive posts written, than about 2-3 weeks later I came upon the headline and thought, wow, someone else in my situation, until I read it and realized it was me. To clarify for the recent posters, my wife and I are committed to being together, except for this issue all else is very good and always has been, I want/need and most importantly enjoy sex, for around 2-3 years now she doesn't/can't due to medical issues I have posted, I truly understand all those issues and am sympathetic, but that doesn't mean I am able to just stop wanting sex, because of her real issues I thought by asking about a FWB that it would be a relief to her by removing that add'l. pressure until she feels better, I was wrong and here we are. There will be no divorce, separation, ultimatum, etc. we BOTH agree on that, so here I am still looking for help/advice. There we are
Well if you're unwilling to divorce, separate, give an ultimatum, etc then you're only options are to start sleeping with someone else and keep it secret or just keep going to therapy and find some good porn, keep being supportive and loving to her and hope it gets better. I give you bonus points either way because before I even married my husband we discussed this and said if we ever got into this situation the person who still wants sex can go find a NSA deal. Sex is important in a relationship no matter how much we hope it isn't.
To me it sounds like you want to cheat, but you want us all to tell you it is ok first. Unless she gives you permission it is not OK. There is no way in hell any woman would be relieved to have her husband ask for a fwb. As 'my perspective' pointed out, that move probably made her trust you less, feel even shittier and did more damage than good.
Violet, you couldn't be more wrong, don't you think if I wanted to cheat, actually made that choice I would have waited this long? Also, I'm a big boy so an "OK" isn't needed, I was/am looking for suggestions and the perspective of those here who I believe to be open minded and truthful in their posts and thought maybe there are other choices than the ones I have contemplated. I appreciate all the posts that fit that objective, even the ones from posters who are either angry or who have been hurt by a "cheater" in the past. One other thing, my wife knows this, when I was dating I never cheated on a girlfriend, if I wanted to be with someone else I broke-up first, and in 27 years of marriage I have not cheated, even when I had opportunities on business trips, so it is a value that I have held to very strongly for my entire life, thus the very difficult situation for me today.
My wife for almost 7yrs has cheated on me for the first time. We Are trying to work it out but I'm having problems with another man being with her. I was her first and then this happen. I asked my wife was he better or bigger or both and she said she not gonna compare us. I told her how do i know I can give her what she needs and stuff then she said our sex has always been good and things will be fine. Why is this really bothering me and what do i need to do
I don't think the "bigger or better" stuff is a good train of thought to continue on. Anyway, if he were better than you she'd leave you for him, and she didn't. It doesn't sound like you were inadequate in any way, and even if you were, it's not an excuse for her to cheat without first confronting you about any problems.
More likely, because you were her first she was still curious about "what she had missed" and that led her to cheat. Or maybe she was bored, or drunk, or has low impulse control, or the other guy aggressively seduced her. Or any combination of those, or something else entirely. Do you see what I'm getting at? The reasons don't matter, and what she did is not your fault. All that matters is that you had trust in her, and the trust is broken. You need to sit down with her and tell her how much that bothers you, and that you can't just forget about it. I would also suggest marriage counseling, to help rebuild the trust.
It's not fair for her to tell you "things will be fine" while you're still hurting. In order to save your marriage she needs to acknowledge she betrayed you and work to rebuild your trust in her, and that will take time and effort. Good luck to you.
Monogamy is defined as a pair only having sex with each other. What Frustrated is describing is a pair not having sex at all - not monogamy. For 24 years his wife was apparently happy to have intimate relations with him, and suddenly turns it all off for three years (and counting) - and refuses to even have a discussion with him about it.
So we see that she has an issue and refuses to discuss it in any form with the one person in the world she should be closest and most open with, while he has an issue and tries his best to work out a solution with her that will best meet both their needs.
She is actively depriving him of his needs on multiple fronts (physical, emotional/mental, and redress) .
Can anyone say that while she remains unable to meet his physical needs (for physical/medical, or just mental/emotional reasons), she has any right to insist or expect that he remain constantly unsatisfied? If she is unhappy with the relationship and is denying him for that reason, she should end it rather than make sure they're both unhappy. If there's a physical reason for her holding him unfulfilled, what does she gain from withholding from him both an explanation and relief - aside from getting to watch him suffer?
If she wants to keep the marriage/relationship, it'll only happen if she doesn't insist on keeping him miserable.
I was in an almost identical situation, though on only 1/3 the time scale. After more than a half-dozen years of marriage with a fulfilling sex life, I found myself suddenly cut off completely in the bedroom. After a year of receiving only chilly and condescending replies to my monthly amorous overtures (I didn't want to be a nag, so after the first few weeks I didn't press the issue nearly as frequently), she finally confessed that she felt she had medical issues with it. After several months of pressure from me, she finally conceded to actually having a doctor investigate. Another year on she finally followed through with the doctor's request for tests. Another year later she had the surgery to correct the situation - only after it had progressed to the point where it destroyed her ability to have children (which we had been trying to have prior to her cutting me off, at her suggestion and my gleeful agreement). The surgery also followed her moving in with a friend of ours and refusing to return home. She still professed affection for me, despite avoiding all physical contact, and even went as far as claiming that she was avoiding me in an attempt to preserve our marriage.
Ending that marriage was the best and most responsible, adult thing I've done in my life.
Hi Frustrated in So Cal.
Here's an idea.
Is it possible for you to bring in someone else into the relationship? This wouldn't be cheating, because you both have access to them(or just you if you and your wife agree) physically. they can be friends emotionally, you can have your wife intimately, and do the other woman carnally.
Also, back pain from accident, that sucks and I am sorry. Naturally I wonder why you haven't been to a doctor to try to alleviate the back pain? Mind numbing back pain for 3 years and nothing to do about it? Is there anything that can be done? I say mind numbing because that is the only thing that would keep me from wanting to have sex.
Just remember cheating is a different thing for every relationship. Since you and your wife define your own relationship on your own rules, you can in fact talk about bringing a 3rd in. Set some rules, see how it goes
I feel your pain. I am 35, female and married for 8 years. We have had sex 7 times in 8 years, none in the past 3 years. He won't discuss it. We have a child. I make good money. But I do not see a way out because I cannot bring myself to break up the family over sex.
LONELY, It must be discussed, absolutely, if not it only festers and you get more angry and frustrated, a discussion may not fix the problem but it brings it out in the open for more discussion later, truthfully, if there was a way for me to give you my contact info, cell or e-mail I would and strictly for you to have someone to talk to about it who gets it ( the topic of course), take care and happy mothers day :)
Forgive me if this wanders a great deal- I'm just going to reply as it comes to me....
You should certainly consider that -she- needs therapy more than -we- need therapy. Encourage her to seek someone alone. That way there's no pressure on her to reveal to you what ever is going on until she is comfortable enough with herself to possibly identify the issue. I'm not saying you don't need couples therapy, but I think it's important for her to be able to discuss what is going on in a private setting before she has to lay the issue out on the line first. I realize you've been married for years, but how many times have you spoken to someone other than your wife about an issue before mentioning it to her just as a sort of 'grounding'?
I agree with the poster who said that inquiring about FWB or NSA situations is a no win situation for her.
I'm not trying to call yourself a jerk, really! If you were in her shoes to the best of your ability to guess - consider yourself depressed and not able to hold up your end of the relationship lake you had in previous years, dealing with chronic pain, struggling with possible side effects of medications or chronic fatigue from being in pain and then the person you love above all in the world says since she hasn't been laid in 3 years she wants to find someone who can do the things for her that you can't. Talk about having the rug puled out from under you.
You have been wonderfully patient in giving 3 years, but something has to give. I suspect that if it keeps up much longer you're going to begin to resent her no matter how great other aspects of the relationship are. How is your casual intimacy? Can you hug her? Can you kiss? Does she pull away from these things in 'fear' that it will lead to being pressured into more? Where does she begin to pull away and draw the line? Be physical with her to the extent that you can without pressure for her to go further and go take some time with the internet and a tissue if needed. Physical contact is a great gateway to opening that door again. I'm not talking about sneaking in a boob grab here and there.. I mean hold her hand. Give her a hug while she's doing the dishes. Mention to her that her hair smells great. Little things that reassure her that you still love her and want to be close to her -- but don't make it scream this must end in the sack.
I think you should see a therapist yourself, without your wife. Not only can you be more candid with them about your situation without being worried about what is on the internet, but they might be able to provide other insight on things you may or may not be aware that you do that could contribute to the issue.
After 27 years, 3 years seems to be a trivial thing and I commend you for the efforts you are making to make it work!
Penny, all very good issues you raise, and in answering I am not wanting to sound like an angel, however the suggestions you and others make i.e. therapy, hugging, snuggling, etc. we / I do them all, she is in therapy alone, I was as well, the therapist told me after 3-4 months that it was her that needed it not me. I absolutely KNOW that the problems she has that caused this problem are real, I know she isn't happy as things are sexually, I know she is doing all she can to remedy this, however I also know the severe pain from a badly injured back isn't going away anytime soon, thus the secondary and tertiary issues will not either. We had discussed this repeatedly and the result was "it is what it is and there is nothing more that can be done" thus the reason I asked about a FWB, not to hurt her or pull the rug out but rather to address an existing issue with no real resolution in sight, as of today I still have not acted on it, but to say the thought to do so is gone would be dishonest. Thanks for your insight, and for not calling me a jerk, as I am truly trying not to be one
I am writing from the perspective of your wife. I also have medical issues--pelvic arthritis, diabetes--that have affected my sex drive. Having a child also knocked it out of me for a while. But my libido in the last 8 years has been challenged, in the last 2 or 3 almost completely shot. I have consented to sex on many occasions, but he complains that I'm not "into it" and this sucks for him. The bottom line is that I don't WANT to have sex. The idea of it makes me sick. I have NO idea why. My husband is wonderful--an excellent human being, great dad, loving partner, excellent in bed and completely in love with me (God knows how) after 17 years together. We have been to counseling, I have been to counseling, He has been to counselig. I'M A THERAPIST and we STILL can't seem to fix this. I've been to sex clinics, taken testosterone to increase my libido, changed diabetes meds. I FINALLY located a medication I could take for my back that wouldn't kill me (I'm deathly allergic to NSAIDS) so have my pain under control. Nothing changes the fact that being touched in a sexual way feels like molestation, no matter what. I have wanted to walk away from conversations about this before because we have talked about it SO much there really isn't anything new to say and our discussions only result in further frustration and intense guilt on my part. Frankly, I walk around feeling guilty almost all of the time. I love him dearly and don't want him to suffer, but I no longer have the ABILITY to empathize with how he feels. I don't think about sex at all, and it is hard to put myself in the mindset of one who does. It isn't cruelty or punishment, it isn't resentment or disappointment. It's biology, plain and simple. I have told him that if he wants a divorce I would understand that, as I do not think I could in any way emotionally tolerate his being with another woman while we are together. Yet we are raising a child together (who is only 9) and enjoy each other in every other regard. We are truly best friends, as it sounds like you and your wife have been. Her body has betrayed her, as mine did. I know all of this isn't an answer, or a solution. I wish to God I had one. I keep praying that it will come back--like a lost civil war soldier out of the mist. I am absolutely fine with him looking at as much porn as he wants to, but this leaves him feeling like a dirty old man all the time. There's no easy solution for this. Evolutionarily, we were not meant to live this long---most of us SHOULD be dead by our 40's--and natural selection decreases the libido of a woman whose childbearing abilities are severely diminished or less than optimal. I wish I had an answer, but know that you are not alone.
This situation is difficult. I feel for you, because without being physically intimate (especially for a guy) the relationship becomes less intimate. It sounds like you are trying really hard to be a good husband, which I have so much respect for. I feel for your wife, because it sounds like she cares a lot about you, even if she can't express that physically at the moment.
Is part of the reason you started having sex less because of her weight gain (ie you were not as sexually attracted, and said something?) I can see that being a reason a woman might walk away from a conversation about sex, or it might be that she is just upset that she doesn't feel libido and maybe mentally wants to satisfy you but physically the sensation is completely different. I remember when I was pregnant, foods I had loved before suddenly became physically impossible to even go near without making me feel sick. Mentally I missed the foods, but physically it just wasn't happening to the point that the physical usurped the mental and it was just my whole body screaming NO. That is a little like how I feel when I am not feeling sexually excited about something. Hormones are a crazy thing sometimes. Is it possible that in addition to the back problems, a change in hormones might also be contributing? Is she taking anti-depressants (you mention she was depressed as a result of the pain)? - because they can cause loss of libido. If you have already looked into ALL the possible medical reasons, I would still have another discussion with her about it.
My daughter had been out of work for almost four months. I asked Messiah to include her in his freemercytemple@yahoo.com to cast a spell to make her get a successfull job . Six days before the next week, she was hired by a company she found online. This has proven to be the BEST job she has ever had! She is extremely happy! Thank the Messiah!! - of the freemercytemple@yahoo.com for he is a wonderful man he always respond back quickly with any questions try him.
However my belief for spells was not that strong. kasabubuspell@gmail.com worked like magic and made my faith so strong in that I got my love back so soon, it was hard for me to believe. I just so feel that those going through hard times in their relationship should give it a try and get the solution to your problem. - Louise
I have following opinions (going through sort of same problems but in my 30`s)
1-At certain age harmonal changes in females, play important role in sexual desires. Talking to medical doctor and taking harmonal pills may help.
2-You have given fair time and energy to issue, I believe it will be fair to fullfill your needs by other means or at certain point your frustation can lead to situation, where you might get sick or hurt anybody.
3-Divorce could be complex and extreme financial burden sometimes. Understand that sometimes we are just caught in complex worldly standards. for example law does not allow polygamy (having more then one wife) but do allow to have sex with multiple sx partners if both parties agree and legaly adult.
4-All people commenting here, reached on this page because they must be facing same kind of issues. So you are not alone