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I'm a single (mostly) gay guy who is curious about women. A hot bisexual mate is interested in a friends-with-benefits arrangement. I'm not looking for an LTR just now, so regular, no-strings sex sounds great. However, his girlfriend doesn't know he's bisexual, and I'd feel uncomfortable having sex with him behind her back. I've said no to guys in the past, bi and gay, because they wanted to go behind their partners' backs. My mate would like his girlfriend to know about him because he'd really like to have threesomes with her (something I'm up for), but he's worried about how she'll react.

Personally, I'd be more concerned about how she might react if she found out about his sexuality some other way. That's one reason why I always err on the side of honesty. However, I'm not exactly unbiased: I'd prefer threesomes to dicks-only sessions. What should I do? —Horny Homo

SAVAGE LOVE How about a little honesty mixed with a little dishonesty? Your mate should offer his girlfriend the boy-girl-boy threesome that all of today's modern young women fantasize about. (Blame Twilight — why can't Bella have it all?) If your mate is worried that she'll react negatively to the suggestion, he can open by telling her that what he's about to propose was all your idea. She'll want to know if his gay-but-bi-curious mate — that's you — is going to want to get into his presumed-to-be-straight pants. Your mate should shrug and say, "Maybe…" and depending on the look on her face when the possibility of Edward-on-Jacob action is raised — disgusted or intrigued? — end with either "…but I don't think I'm interested in going there" (leaving open the possibility of "getting carried away" and "going there" during the threesome) or "…and I might go there if that would turn you on" (making any boy-on-boy action at the threesome something he did for her). If the threesome is a success and you two wind up playing with and in front of her, HH, your mate can come to the sudden and shocking realization that he's bisexual. This will hopefully lead to future threesomes and, perhaps, at some point, her blessing for some boys-only time. If she objects, HH, your mate can blame her for "making" him bisexual — or making him realize it — because he fell on your sword that first time because it was what she wanted.

 

I'm a woman whose "super-hetero" boyfriend is quite shy and needs to build trust before he can open up to someone. Since I have gained his trust, he has revealed that he fantasizes about m-m-f threesomes. I've asked him if he is turned on by the idea of another man's penis, and he says no, he just wants to see me have sex with another man. Yet when he describes his dirtiest fantasies to me at the peak of arousal, he says he gets off on the idea of double penetration — one penis in my anus, another in my vagina — and wants to feel the other man's penis bump up against his own, separated by my innards. Do you think he is bisexual or bi-curious? We intend to enact this fantasy, and I wonder if it could shift the dynamic of our relationship. —Threesome Curious

SAVAGE LOVE It can be hard to predict whether a man will have an epiphany during an m-m-f threesome and come to the sudden and shocking realization that he's bisexual. (Um… does your boyfriend refer to his male friends as "mate," by any chance? Is he a fan of the Twilight series?) He's obviously more aroused by male-male contact than he's capable of admitting when he isn't about to blow a load, TC. This fantasy of his isn't about, or isn't just about, wanting to gangbang a girl with a buddy. Your boyfriend wants to bump penises with another dude — but with your, um, lady "innards" providing the "no homo" absolution. But I don't think you need to extract a full confession of bi-curiousness or even heteroflexibility before you realize this fantasy. He may not be in denial about what his desires add up to, TC. He just may want to check his fantasies about male-male contact against the reality of male-male contact before he tells you what he suspects: he's the tiniest bit bisexual.

 

I have an uncle who calls me "faggot" whenever he and I are alone in the same room. He's a conservative, straight Mormon. I'm a boy who's had sexual encounters with guys and girls, and I'm trying to figure out my own sexuality while dealing with all of the other stuff that comes with going off to college, and frankly I don't need his crap. Do I tell my parents? I'm kind of bi right now, so he's half right, but what business is it of his? —Uncertain Nephew Craving Levelheaded Explanation

SAVAGE LOVEYour uncle is hitting on you, UNCLE, in his fashion — that is, the fashion of the tormented, self-hating, conservative/religious closet case. If you don't wanna find yourself standing there with your uncle's tongue stuffed in your mouth someday — you'd be surprised how quickly someone can stuff his tongue in your mouth — I would advise you not to spend another moment alone with your asshole uncle. And, yes, tell your parents what he's been doing. Because, UNCLE, if he ever makes a pass at you and a scene ensues — you scream, you yell, you bite his tongue off and spit it out the window — your uncle is going to insist that you made the pass at him.

 

I'm a thirty-one-year-old gay man. My boyfriend and I have been together for five years. We have enjoyed a few threesomes with other men, so I assumed I could share a particular fantasy of mine: I've never had sex with a woman and I want to. I am not questioning my sexuality, I'm not "bi," I have zero desire to date women. But my boyfriend immediately accused me of having issues with my sexuality, and after a two-week fight I dropped it. Fast-forward to just before Christmas: I received a promotion, moved to a new floor, and have my own office now — and one of my new female coworkers has been coming on to me. First problem: she's married, so that would be crossing a line. Second, we're coworkers and she has even more to lose than I do. Is there some other way — I already tried the direct approach — to bring this fantasy up to my boyfriend again, or should I just let it go? —Flirting With Danger

SAVAGE LOVE I'm shocked that your boyfriend — a man who's willing to share his boyfriend's ass with other men — would react so violently to your curiosity about lady innards. But seeing as the direct approach prompted a two-week-long fight, FWD, I can't imagine you would have much more success with the indirect approach. (I can't imagine what the indirect approach would be.) Since you're not strictly monogamous and the boyfriend's not strictly rational about this, FWD, a case could be made for satisfying your lady-innards curiosity on the sly and filing the affair under "what he doesn't know won't hurt him." But I can't think of a worse set of lady innards to satisfy your curiosity with than this woman's. You could wind up losing your job and your boyfriend if the affair got ugly and got out. Wait, FWD, wait. In time, some other gay-outards-curious lady will come along, and perhaps by then your boyfriend will have come around.

 

Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage. Write to me at mail@savagelove.net.

Tags Threesomes

Commentarium (32 Comments)

Jan 27 10 - 9:10am
NN

Why is it that every time a person writes in with a kink they want to indulge, but which their partner is uncomfortable with, Dan advises cheating? It seems to me that there are two competing goods here, a person's desire to stay faithful and a person's desire to indulge the kink. But it is like Dan is totally blind to the goods and benefits associated with being faithful and chooses to focus solely on sexual satisfaction at the expense of a person's integrity. I have nothing against indulging a kink but if your partner isn't game you don't get to just ignore that person's desires and boundaries by cheating. Having respect for another person means being honest and if that is making achieving your more fundamental desires impossible then having respect for another person means breaking up with them. A person who purports to give advise about love but can't see the value of respect and integrity is a terrible source for advice!

Jan 27 10 - 9:44am
SG

Am I the only one that found the flippant statement "your mate can blame her for “making” him bisexual" a little offensive? Why perpetuate myths, Dan?

Jan 27 10 - 11:07am
@NN

I think you're absolutely right, NN. Dan Savage is clearly a self-interested man, something that is projected and enacted over and over again in his columns. That's all fine and good, I suppose, he isn't a doctor nor an expert and he doesn't claim to be. Regardless, I think it's a failure of an advice columnist to be unable to be objective, but that's solely my opinion. Dan clearly values sexual gratification above all other "benefits", as you put it so well, NN, and so to him, a partner not immediately gratifying your every sexual wish is a no-questions-asked DEFCON 2 situation.

Forgot honest and open communication, right, Dan? Just LIE to your heterosexual girlfriend and MANIPULATE her into thinking SHE was the one who MADE YOU bisexual. Forget owning that yourself. Forget "coming out". If there's a woman involved, as far as Dan Savage is concerned, go ahead and wholesale exploit the shit out of her, as long as your precious and vitally important sexual kinks are being serviced. Ugh. I hate to be the 4000th person to sound the MISOGYNY alarm, but considered it sounded. Dan Savage is a frat boy putz, much like the republicans he so gleefully and pathologically lampoons.

In the same way that "Your uncle is hitting on you, UNCLE, in his fashion — that is, the fashion of the tormented, self-hating, conservative/religious closet case," Dan Savage repeats and enacts, over and over again, his very own vitriolic, absolutist, myopic, (dare I say) CONSERVATIVE sexual values against heterosexual men and women. Again, Dan, you can't constantly bitch about gay marriage (which I am 100% supportive of) and then CONSTANTLY DEVALUE THE MEANING OF MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS. How do you not understand that this is ammunition for the guns your much hated Santorums, et al, level against the LBGT community.

It's your job to be a writer, Dan, so maybe pay attention to your words and don't be such a careless hack all the time.

Jan 27 10 - 3:20pm
yo

NN and @NN: perhaps you should consider not reading Savage Love...or at the least stop commenting; your experience reading his column has shown you that you don't agree with many things he commonly says. A whole lot more people, myself included, appreciate his opinion...it might seem radical to you, but his voice has been and is an invaluable one to the entire community, LBGT and straight. He's opened a lot of minds and been the catalyst for a lot of necessary conversations. Try to relax; it's just one person's opinion. If you keep coming back here thinking his comments are going to be different, you are just silly.

Jan 27 10 - 4:08pm
Superdude

I don't think the uncle is hitting on the kid. He's just calling it as he sees it and being a meanie.

Jan 27 10 - 5:06pm
Lisa

What the hell? I'm a long-time Savage Love reader and I normally agree with most of Dan's opinions, even when he's accused of being anti-monogamy, anti-hetero, anti-vanilla, or whatever he's being accused of that day. Usually his opinions are well-reasoned. But this one seems oddly HATEFUL.

Jan 27 10 - 7:05pm
AlanK

Tickets are for sale for Dan's play--ie, the play based on his book about being a father--which is opening in NYC in a few weeks.

Jan 27 10 - 7:19pm
NN

Tell you what, if you refrain from suggesting that that the only reason people read is for pleasure or to reinforce their own opinions, I promise to refrain from calling you callow and superficial for making the suggestion. Maybe one of the reasons I read and comment is to influence others to think critically about what Dan says.

Jan 27 10 - 7:20pm
NN

"opened minds" indeed.

Jan 27 10 - 8:13pm
ii

Tell *you* what, NN, stfu. SL readers hardly need your input to get them to think critically. Start your own column/blog if you so want to influence others. Clearly your reasons for reading this column are just to have a place to bitch about an opinion you don't support. I've noticed your comments here a lot and they all run along the same line: Dan Savage is anti-monogamy. I agree with yo; if you keep coming back here expecting a different perspective from Dan Savage, you're wasting your time, happy to use his words for your own soapboxing. Or do you think he just needs a bit of encouragement from you to 'think critically' and 'pay attention to his words'? And by the way, no one in these comments so far has suggested that 'the only reason people read is for pleasure or to reinforce their own opinions'. People consult him and read his work because he has a unique voice about sex and culture and relationships. There are plenty of advice columnists who are as pro-monogamy as you seem to be; go read them.

Jan 27 10 - 8:41pm
NN

If no one is suggesting that people only read for their own pleasure, why does reading things that make you angry cause you to tell people to stfu and then tell them what they should read? I didn't say I read and commented to get people to think critically, I only suggested it. Maybe I read and comment here to make callow and superficial people like yourself angry.

Jan 28 10 - 1:14am
Chuck Eufarley

NN & @NN - ii is clearly taking this down the troll path, so I won't bother addressing anything that came after your first comments. I think the mistake you're making with Dan Savage is that he's a relationship columnist, which he's not. He's a sex columnist - and that creates a huge difference. If you read SL enough, you'll see that the common theme is making sure that the letter writers - male or female - pursue their sexual satisfaction in a safe manner.

Your issues with the first letter and the claim of misogyny fall flat primarily because they rely on the idea that the woman has no power in the situation, which is pretty sexist. The whole 'half-truth' scenario Dan advocates relies entirely on whether or not the girl says yes to the threesome, but it appears you skipped right past that in your haste to condemn.

BTW, usually Dan tells writers to DTMFA if their partner absolutely refuses to indulge their kink and it's really that big of a deal, not cheat.

Jan 28 10 - 4:16am
PO

The boyfriend who wants to have a MMF threesome with his girlfriend is gay. Next.

Jan 28 10 - 8:54am
@chuck

Fair enough but the issue doesn't turn on whether he is a sex or relationship columnist. The issue is the context in which sex takes place. We have all seen many columns where Dan tells a person who wants to explore some strange fetish how to do so in a way that is safe and respects her own body or, on other occasions, to leave a relationship where the sex is good because the rest of the relationship sucks. So it is clear he is willing to balance sexual gratification against other goods. Here, I maintain, he got the balance wrong, I say so and I get a big 'STFU go read other shit' from someone who claims to be open minded. Responding to that isn't trolling, the troll can be found in the person who instigates such a dialog. Finally, I'm far from alone in my opinion tons of liberal kinky people at The Stranger (Dan's home website) think so too and have been taking him to task in the same way in their comments.

Jan 28 10 - 11:00am
@NN

Chuck, fair enough. The troll comment was a case of name calling but I'll forgive you because, hey, it's the internet. Your first comment is well-taken. Yes, he's a sex columnist, you're right. Therefore, I should take his "relationship" advice (are relationships the opposite of sex when it comes to behavior and "advice" in this case, genuinely curious) with a grain of salt from now on. That being said however, this doesn't touch upon the important points that NN and I brought up, namely, that his gay marriage argument is compromised by his public advice giving persona which could very well be summed up by the annoying acronym you used: DTMFA. Additionally, I think you're wrong on your assessment of misogyny in the MMF letter. Lying to a woman in any capacity to facilitate one's experiments in "across the aisle" banging is absolutely insidious at the micro level and misogynist at the macro level.

I'm in "no rush", as you say, to condemn Dan. I respect his eloquence and his drive immensely. I've been reading his work for years and, like NN, my most recent impressions have been that he's taking a turn for the stupid, and I have no problem commenting that thusly. I dare say, if you were in the same situation, for example, if your girlfriend (hypothetically) said she wanted to have a FFM threesome and you signed on and then she dumped you and said you made her a lesbian, despite willfully leading herself and you down that path, I doubt you'd be so sanctimonious and diplomatic. It's a nasty, modern "savage" thing to do and I'm surprised, still, at Dan's advice in that scenario, and many others as of recent.

Also, NN and @Chuck, people who's argument is "go read something else if you don't like this" belong back on the playground and not mixing in complicated, "big-kid" society with the rest of us. They're the same people who's politics are often completely black and white, so on and so forth. Loud mouth morons looking for a fight. ii couldn't respond to your cogent comments so he took his ball and went home. No worries, man.

Jan 28 10 - 11:34am
Silo

I'm a guy who is fully bi and it took a while to find a girlfriend who not only was okay with that but also could get into MMF fun. She loves it not to mention that it is incresdibly hot for me too. But it must be some kind of myth that lots of women secretly yearn to go threeway with two bi dudes. I don't meet many, or is this something so low on the cultural radar that I'm missing it?

Jan 28 10 - 12:50pm
Chuck Eufarley

NN & @NN - Just for some clarification, _I_ am not the troll, the guy who wrote the dumbest letter signed it "ii". I'd rather have a real conversation then tell people to go somewhere else.

Jan 28 10 - 2:14pm
p.r

Silo: I fantasize about it, my fwb is bi and i really don't care - even if i was dating him i really wouldn't mind that much. IF FFM threesomes are now considered mainstream and fun (which, incidentally, i think i'm the only person i know not interested in that)than whats the big deal about MMF sex?

Jan 28 10 - 2:21pm
Silo

P.R.: Maybe more women just need to open up more about it if they have bi MMF on the mind!

Jan 30 10 - 6:43pm
Tiptree

letter 1) threesome, partner involved (he's being entertaining when suggesting that lie of omission; I'm guessing he knew there'd be readers who'd get all bothered; also, if you say yes to a threesome with your partner, you are never ever going to know for certain what they are thinking/feeling [that's part of it])
letter 2) threesome, partner involved
letter 3) creepy uncle
Letter 4) proposed threesome, turned down, asks dan's permission to cheat and dan emphatically tell him don't cheat

So -- where does he suggest cheating?
Dan is about working it out with your partner (and by working it out, I mean balancing everyone's wants/needs; if it's impossible [or seems impossible], he always always suggests that people move on rather than cheat and lie)

Jan 31 10 - 2:36am
nerkums

The new formatting of the type in this article is atrocious! Does every first line need to be big and bold??? Oy!

Jan 31 10 - 1:39pm
@tiptree

The cheating is right here "a case could be made for satisfying your lady-innards curiosity on the sly and filing the affair under “what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him.” " In other words, under some circumstances I condone cheating.

Jan 31 10 - 3:25pm
Tiptree

Except what he actually says is this: "Since you’re not strictly monogamous and the boyfriend’s not strictly rational about this, FWD, a case could be made..." and follows that with this: "Wait, FWD, wait."

Among the paragraph of thinking outloud, that is Dan's only actually advice what for to do regarding the question asked in the letter. Wait and then bring it up with your boyfriend again.

Jan 31 10 - 11:31pm
@tiptree

Right. But when the right woman comes along and the boyfriend still aint game...

Feb 01 10 - 1:18pm
Jessica

All girls today want a m-f-m threesome do they? I must have been out of the room when the vote was up for that one...Sorry, but I actually think threesomes are NOT the norm. I am not saying there's anything remotely wrong with them, but they contravene a fundamental intimacy between a loving couple. Gay or straight. Most people are jealous at the thought of their beloved fucking another. Personally it would drive me crazy if my boyfriend were to say he had a fantasy to do it with me and another girl. But because I am a hypocrite I wouldn't mind the other way. Me and him and another guy. But that's the thing. Because I know I would hate it, I wouldn't consider suggesting it my way. I think there is an appalling lack of restraint, sexually speaking, encouraged in society today. Resisting temptation is part of being a successful human being. We weren't born to have whatever we want when we want, that's pretty fucking obvious isn't, and we'd be a lot happier if we challenged ourselves more and didn't act on every kink, whimsy, sexual impulse we have. Rant is over now. Thank you.

Feb 01 10 - 2:10pm
NN

I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. Even Dan agrees his advice was way off base. In other words, suck one ii.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/01/29/sl-letter-of-the-da...

Feb 03 10 - 10:38pm
Mike

Why is it that every time a person writes in with a kink they want to indulge, but which their partner is uncomfortable with, Dan advises cheating? It seems to me that there are two competing goods here, a person’s desire to stay faithful and a person’s desire to indulge the kink. But it is like Dan is totally blind to the goods and benefits associated with being faithful and chooses to focus solely on sexual satisfaction at the expense of a person’s integrity. I have nothing against indulging a kink but if your partner isn’t game you don’t get to just ignore that person’s desires and boundaries by cheating. Having respect for another person means being honest and if that is making achieving your more fundamental desires impossible then having respect for another person means breaking up with them. A person who purports to give advise about love but can’t see the value of respect and integrity is a terrible source for advice!

I totally, totally, totally agree

Feb 04 10 - 10:59am
Jessica

Wow, NN. It seems like whoever ii is, s/he really got under your skin!

Feb 09 10 - 12:01pm
NN

What can I say Jessica, I can't stand the shameless!

Feb 18 10 - 2:32am
Cheating advice....

"Why is it that every time a person writes in with a kink they want to indulge, but which their partner is uncomfortable with, Dan advises cheating?"

Finally, someone else has noticed this as well.

I've been reading his column for a long time and I realized that Savage constantly recommends cheating as a means to satistifying your urges on the side if you have a partner that won't indulge.

It's absolutely the wrong advice. It violates the trust between the couple and cheating involves betraying that trust and showing utter comtempt for the partner being cheated on.

There's no other way around it.

You are not entitled to having whatever sexual desire fulfilled from your partner. Within reason. No one should be pressured or forced into performing a sexual act just to satisfy a selfish partner.

If you aren't getting the sex you want and this is going to drive you to cheat (with encouragement from people like Savage) then one, you shouldn't be in a relationship and two, maybe you need to leave this relationship in order to happily pursue your sexual gratifications elsewhere.

And I don't know why Savage is accusing that uncle of hitting on his nephew when it's clear that he's just being a mean asshole. How did he interpret this as being hit on? Passive aggressive reverse psychology?

Dan sometimes gives some very sound advice but there is definitely a pattern where his own intolerence and disdain just comes out. I've noticed on too many occasions over the years how he devalues womens' bodies.

He keeps volunteering this info. We get it Dan. You're a gay man and you're aren't sexually attracted to women and yes, you resent having ever slept with one because of societal pressure.

Feb 18 10 - 8:38pm
Cheating advice....

"I think there is an appalling lack of restraint, sexually speaking, encouraged in society today. Resisting temptation is part of being a successful human being."

Amen. I've been saying this for quite some time now. There is a tsunami of bad behaviour out there that's getting worse and the message people keep hearing is to just do whatever you want, whenever you want.

And Dan isn't helping. He's an enabler on too many occasions.

No restraint. No using common sense. No having principles or morals. It's completely appalling to see people justify engaging in self indulgent and unethical behaviour because they feel like it.

To be honest here, we're breeding a generation of narcissists and they want to act on every impulse they have and see you as either a means to an end or simply in the way.

Mar 10 10 - 3:10am

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