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Reader Feedback on "Divine Intervention"
Of all crimes known to mankind, pedophilia must be considered the worse for it leaves an innocent plus a victim to fend for itself after being violated, the absolute epitome and height of arrogance by anyone. That it occurred by priests whose role is to protect children by enveloping them in the sanctity of the lord's shepherds (or so they present themselves as being) is far more than merely arrogant. It is to spit in the face of the Lord, Himself, for preying upon those designated as the "lambs of God" by the passage and verse of "let the children come unto me...", etc. That they should be so used in violation of the spirit for which they were made, and that priests performed in that manner suggests that the priests have no religious credibility at all for which one human can honor another. Unfortunately, the celibacy pact that these priests must have understood is that everything but women were fair game in the hunt to satisfy their natural urges, which they refuse to acknowledge they have, and somehow reconcile that they can hold themselves above the human condition that God has designed for mankind, and that defines a person's being human. It is illogical, irreverent, and obviously, dangerous to children and others for priests to take that stand, and indulge that fiction without more clearly defining acceptable parameters and insuring they meet the obligation of the cloak they wear, and the religion it is based upon. If there is such a thing as religious fraud, this surely must be it, combined with the criminal conduct that has long been intentionally hidden from view, a very sad affair for all communities who are affected.
--pb
04/22 |
Christ was progressive. Paul wasn't.
--RM
04/19 |
Nope. I can't see it. I can only speak to what you cited from Corinthians. The reason is, scholars generally accept that Paul did not write Timothy or Ephesians. If you read the rest of Corinthians, you find a few instances of him granting women equality (1Cor7:4;11:8-12). And what you quoted there shows only that he serves up the same general distinctions between men and women as were common to his Jewish culture, or as he says "the Law." So this guy is an asshole for not being a 'progressive' minded liberal/feminist/homosexual rights activist back in 45 CE? OK.
--MS
04/17 |
... so you can see why I say "Paul's an asshole."
--RM
04/17 |
Paul on women:
1 Corinthians 14
33: ...As in all the churches of the saints, 34: the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. 35: If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
Ephesians 5
21: Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22: Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23: For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24: As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
1 Timothy 2
11: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. 12: I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. 13: For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14: and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15: Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
--RM
04/16 |
http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pseudodi.htm
--RM
04/16 |
"Paul was an asshole. Why we accord his writings so much credence is beyond me -- he's the source of most of the hatred towards women and gays that's endemic to the Church."
No Paul, no Church. No dispute. Find me a Gospel with less degrees of separation from Jesus Christ than Paul's Letters. You can't? Does that answer anything? His teachings on homosexuality come from his efforts to push Jewish ethics onto Gentile converts. Greeks and Romans were into all sorts of 'buggery' back then. Man-boy relationships that you hear about in Plato's Symposium did exist up until the time of Rome, and the only real condemnation of homosexuality was when people made fun of those men in the 'passive' position (taking it up the ass), because they were like slaves or women. The active position was A-OK (though with boys it wasn't as accepted as in ancient Greece)...Paul and the Jews didn't like any of this stuff though. Wow, just imagine a good Christian back then trying to put an end to grown men molesting young boys and forcing themselves on slaves...sounds kind of like that nun. The type of homosexual activity that was most predominant back then apparently didn't have quite as much to do with actual homoerotic attraction. Either way, it wasn't your "Will and Grace" stuff of today. Show me where Paul inspires hatred towards women. Does he incite hatred towards Jews? Well, yes, but he doesn't hate them--was just angry that they didn't believe. He wanted them to inherit God's Kingdom. I know far less about the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in the fourth Century, but your characterization of Paul as an 'asshole' makes me not want to take your word for it.
--MS
04/16 |
150 Abusive Priests Have Recently And Quietly Moved
Bishops Apparently Warn No Police, Prosecutors or Parishioners
During the last 18 months, at least 150 Catholic priests from 56 diocese who were removed or retired facing credible sexual abuse allegations have quietly moved away, according to a church sponsored report released in January.
In at least 138 cases, according to the document, the perpetrators went to other American dioceses. In at least 10 cases, offending priests left the country: San Antonio (4), Santa Rosa CA (3), San Bernadino, Phoenix, Salt lake City and Metuchen NJ (all with one each).
In at least five cases bishops claimed they had lost track of the abusers: Brooklyn, New York, Philadelphia, Santa Rosa and St. Maron.
Eight diocese admit priests have moved but refuse to say how many. They include Amarillo, Dallas, Joliet, Philadelphia, Rockville Centre, Saginaw, Yakima and Youngstown.
The dioceses with the most cases of priests who've moved include New York (16), Boston (12), Jefferson City MO (6), Newark (5), Bridgeport (5) and Manchester NH (5).
"Catholics who have recently met or befriended priests from these diocese need to safeguard their children and push their bishops for honest answers," said Janet Patterson of Conway Springs, Kansas. Patterson, whose son took his own life after having been molested by a priest, leads the Kansas Chapter of SNAP.
"It's time for the laity to call for zero tolerance for the bishops," said Peg Clark, president of Voice of the Faithful Southwest Florida..
"The crisis is no longer a crisis in the priesthood, it's a crisis in the hierarchy.
Peg, the crisis is just starting!
In a recent article Stephen Blaire, bishop of the Diocese of Stockton states the church is committed to ensuring it doesn't happen again.
"Our children are safe," he said. "We will make every effort to reach out to victims. … "
These statements are inaccurate. The statistics strongly suggest that there are children still being abused in almost every diocese on a weekly or even daily basis. Child molesters don't voluntarily stop molesting children What steps has the church taken other than rhetorical? How have they reached out to the victims other than aggressive legal tactics? What new information does the John Jay report contain?
The Catholic Church hasn’t reached out to me. Nor to the other two men that have come forward to acknowledge abuse at the hands of the same "priest".
Experts will tell you that the "average" child molester will commit 120 (+/-) offenses before he is caught! That means that my abuser molested approximately 117 victims that have not been able to acknowledge their survival of clergy abuse. Maybe some of them didn't survive. Maybe some of them still won’t.
And what of my abuser now that there is a public record of the accusations regarding his serial abuse? He answers the phone if you call the St. Peters rectory in Ontario Canada where he is retired next to a secondary school!
The Archdiocese of Los Angeles is intent on settling civil suits behind closed doors. Apparently the bishop thinks the boys at that school in Canada are safe.
To my knowledge, there was not one reported case in the entire John Jay Study that was not previously known by the media or legal authorities and are mostly 1 victim abusers.
Those questions resonate following the release of the national two-part study on the Church molestation problem from 1950-2002. The first study, by the prestigious John Jay College of Criminal Justice, found 4,392 priests had been accused of abusing 10,667 minors. University of New Orleans criminologist Peter Scharf warns the first part should be read with "absolute caution." Among other concerns, he notes that the report states 56 percent of the priests were alleged to have abused one victim each-- a statistic that defies criminal behavioral research. "The typical pedophile has dozens of victims," Scharf says.
Clergy Sex Abuse, this betrayal by your spiritual representative is not a crime in the accepted sense. Because of the standing that clergy holds among most religious families when sexual molestation by "Gods representative" occurs, it severs your connection with your society.
This crime has a self destructive incubation period of from 20 to 40 years. Victims typically can’t report within the statute of limitations, because they are still being harmed. These limitations should and must be abolished. Because of the nature of the victim’s reaction to this crime, the abusive clergy knows that many won’t survive to report it! If this is so then the Church leadership, local government, our prosecutors and law enforcement have all been a party to the systematic spiritual rape of tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of children.
Can there possibly be 562,000 victims? There are certainly many more than 11,000. What about the social costs of this many self-destructive victims especially drug abuse, incarceration and suicide? Shouldn’t those responsible pay for that? Since 2001, more than 700 priests have been removed from their positions for “credible” accusations of child molestation. Does anyone think they were unknown to church leaders? Just in the week since the survey’s debut there have been over 200 previously unlisted victims step forward.. It is unlikely that that is all of them.
How about the children that were molested at church today? Are they safe? I guess the church is reaching out to them. Too Bad.
LA survivor
--rmb
04/16 |
Indeed -- while travelling, I've gone to Anglican masses from time to time, and the sermons have been wonderful -- sprinkled with anecdotes about the Vicar's family life. It really is more meaningful. Why don't I go back more often? Once a Catholic, always a Catholic, I suppose -- though it DOES seem asinine to be a non-practicing Catholic than a practising Anglican, or Orthodox, what have you, IF one is inclined towards spirituality.
--RM
04/15 |
I think it should be pointed out that the Orthodox Chrisian faith, which is 90% the same as the Catholic church in its teachings & weekly church services, allows for its priests to marry and have children. In fact, it's highly encouraged that the priest marries before he begins his calling to the church. Why should Catholic priests not marry? In many ways, Orthodox priests can relate better to their parishioners because they are going through the same events/developments in their own lives when raising their families.
The Orthodox church also encourages the use of birth control. Sex is not seen as just being a means towards procreation.
The Orthodox faith also does not believe that the Pope & its priests are equal to Christ. Rather the Patriarch, the Orthodox church's leader, is seen as just that: a human leader on earth. He is not seen to be above earthly laws, like the Pope. Should the Catholic church decide to take the same stance with its own religious leader, some priests may not be as compelled to believe that they too can get away these crimes.
--aaaa
04/15 |
Word up ETJ, wish I could have said it so nicely. Nerve editors, executives, etc. take note. More substance, like this, less of the other drivel you've succumbed to over the past couple of years. We didn't all sign on for celebrity worship, fashion photo shoot excerpts and mental circle jerks.
--slut
04/15 |
The hierarchical structure of the Church is founded on the writings of a 4th century neo-Platonist who called himself Dionysus the Areopagite, after the new-Testament figure, and was accorded credence because of his accepted proximity to Christ and His teachings. The guy was a fraud, it turns out, but we're still left with this top-down structure.
Paul was an asshole. Why we accord his writings so much credence is beyond me -- he's the source of most of the hatred towards women and gays that's endemic to the Church.
I love this woman's ideas and her spunk. Let's take the Church back -- it pains me that I can't go to Mass any more without some Opus Dei idiot condemning people left and right like some lunatic Evangelist. This is not my Church. Christ taught love and acceptance, and I don't see very much of that in the Church nowadays.
The shame of it is, JPII has stacked the deck with conservatives for so long that we're actually likely to see a swing to the RIGHT when he dies. We'll see what happens -- if we're lucky, there'll be a revolt. Otherwise, the Church will dwindle to a freakish cult.
A shame, really.
--RM
04/15 |
Wow. I'm surprised after reading this to say that this nun is far too liberal for my tastes. I do agree that priests should probably be allowed to marry, and that the Church should re-examine its stance on homosexuality. But that is only for these reasons: Not allowing priests to marry and the sinfulness of homosexuality both stand on weak Scriptural grounds. And also, if the sexual repression is what has caused the priests to engage in pedophilic behavior, then that is what needs to be changed. So far there is no evidence I know of pointing either way. I don't know much about pedophilia, but I doubt that celibacy is the root of its existence.
In the letters of Saint Paul, marriage is constructed as a concession to weakness. It is something you do--if you cannot stay chaste--to prevent you from commiting even worse sins. Striving for purification of the body is part of being a Christian, no matter how you read your Bible. Telling the Catholic Church to fold in the face of a liberal culture is just absurd. You can't change the fact that the goal is for a Christian to be without earthly desires such as sex. And all Christians will have their own issues with that. But we need to do what Saint Paul did with marriage, and say "If celibacy is causing even greater sins in the priesthood, then let those priests who need to marry do their thing and still remain priests."
Oh, and there is only one message in the Passion of Christ??!!?!? Is this lady really a nun?
--MS
04/15 |
As a practicing Catholic, I am as outraged, saddened and ashamed by the epidemic of sexual abuse on the part of too many priests, and the coverup of that abuse by bishops, as Ms. Jackowski.
However, I do believe that it is irresponsible of both Ms. Jackowski and Nerve to publich unsubstantiated (at least in this article) stories about chartered planes bringing in boys from Thailand for the sexual enjoyment of unnamed bishops and archbishops.
And the late (and widely respected) Joseph Cardinal Bernardin has, at the least, earned the right to have wild charges of orgies and murder presented with some sort of substantiation, if they are to be presented at all.
--LMM
04/15 |
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
--sh
04/15 |
Wow. This is a Salon article, not a Nerve article. And I think it's absolutely great. Nerve works so hard to avoid the spectre of earnesty, or politics, or anything besides a carefully crafted, look-at-me hedonism. (Especially since Em & Lo left. They worked so hard saying 'Don't think we're not cool just because we care about something, but we care about how people treat each other' and they did it very well. Too bad this community (or the editors?) as a whole thinks it has to be so painfully hip all the time. It's all you New York indie people. Yes. I put all the blame on you.)
Whatever giggles or leers Nerve may incite the rest of the time, sex doesn't have to be funny or cool or detached to be important to us. It doesn't even have to be pleasurable, as we see in this article. Here's to more like this.
--ETJ
04/15 |
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