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Reader Feedback on "Losing My Religion"
I loved your words, and how you arranged them to make a remotely sentient point. Rock on!
--JG
05/22 |
Thank you for your thoughtful words. I am grappling with losing my faith as well, and you and I share several thoughts. I'm a gay male Catholic, or I was, and it has just become too much to continue with a church that, as you stated so well, hates me, and what I do. I was born this way. I will always believe that Jesus, as long as there *is* a Jesus, loves me the way God made me. Much as I loved with all my heart the Catholic church, I think it's obsession with sex is far more perverted than anything I ever did. I don't know where to go from here, but I can hold my head high again, unashamed of myself, and maybe that's the best religion of all.
dean
--DDA
03/03 |
You're disgusting inaccurate and blatently uneducated tyrade against Catholicisim has wholeheartedly saddened and enraged me. You're "facts" about the actual numbers of preists who do not remain celebate are completely false. In over 20 studies by the APA and other accredited organizations it has been proven that less than one percent of one percent of Catholic clergy have been sexually active with anyone whilst in the priesthood. Furthermore it has also been proven that other churches such as protestanism have similar statistics (they just are'nt widely publicised by the media). Also, Jesus made over 18 different references to chastity and sexual morality. I respect everyone's opinion, but you're wrong. It's people like you that I hate the most, people who try to put down others for the sake of self worship and to gather attention to themselves.
By the way, I'm not Catholic, I'm Buddhist. Even though I belong to another religion, I can see that the Catholic church is a holy organization and that you are an ignorant, backwards, and distgusting person.
--BH
12/13 |
This is specifically for Lisa Gabrielle. I was doing a web search on "virgin mary" and masturbation when your story came up. It made me want to read the rest. You seem to be the rare combination of brillant woman with real, hot blood in her veins. God blessya and please keep writing.
(PS Half French, hald Italian)
--CS
11/29 |
Excellent! Couldn't agree more.
--MJ
11/25 |
I really loved this a lot. I am a homosexual male and growing catholic I can understand a lot of what you were saying. Also, even though i was never exposed to any sexual molestations, I always wondered why priests had such stigmas. This has brought up many questions in my own mind and I just think it was very well written. I totally agree with you. And I'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks this way about sexuality in the catholic church.
--AL
09/11 |
I was brought up a Presbyterian but I met a catholic flight attendant back in mid 1974. Our second date was to a nude beach, legal for three years (1974-77) north of San Diego. She was a free spirit, who went to her parish church often. We had a rocky romance, but it all ended in May 1979 when she was killed on the American Airlines DC10 wreck north of Chigago (an engine fell off). Later, two Presbyterian pastors told me to go to AA to do something about my drinking. I have, and I go back to church sometimes, but AA saved by butt, and a religious group may save your soul.
--FHJ
07/27 |
Yes, Lisa, it's me, Karen! I just finished reading your novel...WOW. Captivating, especially the many references to our small town. (I must admit trying to identify in your characters people I knew!) I've been trying to figure out how to contact you. Please e-mail me: majic@mnsi.net
--
07/05 |
interesting informative and potentially sane
--RM
07/01 |
Hey, I just wanted to let you know how muchI enjoy your article, but I feel I have to point out one thing...your comment about how protestant religions don't have sexual scandals isn't exactly accurate. I grew up methodist in a town predominantly southern baptist, and my friends told me stories of youth leaders abusing young girls (13 and up), it led some people to move, and some preachers to give up their craft. And most people now (or read) about what happened with Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart. There is also a group at my college who are fundamentalist religious fanatics, who parade around with picket signs shunning whomever doesn't follow their status quo.
Actually, the ones I know who are the most accepting are the catholics...mainly because, I think, 1) in "Buckle of the Bible Belt" Texas, they are in the minority, and 2)we're idealistic college students, who knows that shit happens.
Anyways, the point that i'm trying to come across is that abuse is everywhere, right now it's just the catholics that are getting the brunt end of the stick right now. I'm hoping that the time will come that that all religions will just get a grip and stop this hipocracy right now!
--NCB
06/29 |
KS? Karen? Is that you? Ma Gawd.
LG
--
06/20 |
Lisa: I don't think we've seen each other since our 5-year high school reunion way back when! Great article. Do you remember, in elementary school, attending Mass every Monday through Friday during Lent? I also attended church with my neighbours on Sunday - because my Mom was a non-practising Catholic and my Dad an agnostic. (I was SURE Dad was damned to hell.) (Why did my parents bother putting me in a Catholic grade school?!!) Things began to change for me in public high schoool: I started thinking about other things when religion wasn't being crammed down my throat from 8:30 a.m. to 3:30 p.m. five days per week. Now I think my Dad's been right on the money all along. I know there's a higher power - and He's not sitting up there on a throne - it's just pure, positive energy. Put it out and it'll come back to you. Be kind and giving and thankful, and try to learn from your mistakes. It's pretty straightforward if you want it to be. Who cares who you're sleeping with as long as you're not hurting anyone?
The biggest problem I have with the Catholic Church (besides the obvious sex-scandal stuff) is this: how can a priest possibly counsel people on family matters? They haven't got a clue.
Take care, Lisa. Fondly - a fellow Noble.
--KS
06/17 |
As a side note, i have noticed in my dealings with those raised as Catholics that the "guilt" stereotype rings true, as the writer pointed out. If they're not practicing, they're guilty about it, and if they're not guilty about it, they're angry about it. The writer also seems to still harbor these feelings of animosity and rejection towards the religion in question, and this is, perhaps, what i found un"nerve"ing -- i generally dislike the slander of specific religions, except in a philosophical context. But perhaps these "guilt" tendencies are just a result of of the general religious indoctrination that most Catholics go through -- i wouldn't know, and shouldn't judge. By the way, i agree with the author -- most of the sexually dysfunctional/virgins/etc. i know are Catholics.
--E.E.
06/12 |
Although very funny, well-written, and insightful, i found this article to be a little biased, though perhaps not uninformed. For instance, Celibacy is not an "impossible" vow, in my humble and inexperienced opinion -- many people, not only the "truly celibate" Catholic priests, are able to keep it. Though it may not be essential to the Christian faith (the teachings of Jesus), it is a vow taken very seriously in other spiritual traditions -- by most Buddhist monks, for instance. All in all, i found the article interesting, but a tad unneccessarily accusative.
--E.E.
06/12 |
Dear Lisa,
Thank you for your intimate confessional of life in the Catholic Church through the eyes of woman. I couldn't agree with you more, well except for thinking Jesus was a hottie! I am a devoted Protestant heterosexual male who was raised in the hypocrosy of the Catholic Church. I find the incredible tragedy of the Catholic Church to very despicable. I agree with your opinion on the abolishion of celibacy completely. Sexuality is as important a part of normal human development as spirituality is and it's time that the fools in the Vatecan and the cardinals around the world realize that! What I want to know is this : if a normal (non religious figure) person were responsible for the concealment of evidence of perhaps hundreds of cases of child molestation, that person would be guilty of at the very least; obstruction of justice, and at most colusion and an accessory after the fact. In my opinion the authority figures in the catholic church are just as guilty as the perverts they are protecting. Cardinal Law should be the first. Charges filed with the Boston DA's office for obstruction of justice, aiding and abetting a known child sex offender, and accessory after the fact for each case that he was involved with and apparently there are a bunch! Putting religious figures in prison where they belong should send a message to the higher ups in Vatican City. No matter how much good these people may have done in the course of their lives, it cannot possibly atone for the destruction they have brought upon the innocent sheep in their care. The only flaw in my view here is this : What do you think the life expectancy of a convicted homosexual child molesting priest would be in say the Massachusettes State Prison in Walpole? Thanks again for your essay.
--MDR
06/11 |
Lost my religion a long time ago. Was raised a catholic, went to catholic school etc. I was always a history buff and read everything I could get my hands on. From studying ancient history and then reading the Spanish Chronicles about the conquest of Mexico, Peru etc. came to the conclusion that religion has caused more problems and wars than anything in the history of mandkind.
So I do not believe in religions or god. There is a force in every living thing, god is within you.
To add a twist to this, my wife who was baptized a catholic but her parents never went to church recently became kinda involved in the church again. She taught religion classes to the local school children, mainly because we have two children and they were looking for teachers.
Our local priest who had been here along time, was sent to another church, a larger one than ours. Everyone was upset that he had to leave. My wife and others went to visit him at his new church a couple of times. During this time peroid her sex drive intensified which although I was enjoying, knew something wasn't right. I thought it was here hormones at first then suspected a boyfriend. I was correct, one day when I came home from work I found a condom wrapped in tissue paper in our bathroom. ( I had started looking for evidence) She wasn't here, but had went to visit the priest with a friend and our daughter. When I confronted her about the condom ( it wasn't used but unrolled) she said that she and someone had met at our home but nothing happend because she couldn't go through with it.At first she told me the name of someone I didn't know. Later after I said that I was going to confront the guy she told me the unbelievable, it was the priest that had left. She had been calling him on her cell phone and they got close she said and one thing led to another. I confronted the priest and he was very sorry that it happened. He also told me because of his age (22 years older than my wife)he couldn't get an erection so that is one reason nothing took place. He said after that happened they realized that what they were doing was wrong and both of them had too much to loose. I forgave them both, but it has given me another reason to hate the church and everything it stands for. Yes they should abolish celabacy, but even if priest's were to marry, they would still be subject to extramarital affairs etc.
--SRJ
05/25 |
Funny, if only most nerve writing was of this standard.
--IRH
05/21 |
excellent piece, made my laugh and think, bravo nerve..como per usuale...
--FYG
05/17 |
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..................................................
Poppy's.... Poppy's Time to go to sleeeeeeepppp
Could we be more into ourselves lisa?
--WIZ
05/17 |
'tenant' should read 'tenet'
--EB
05/16 |
Your essay -- which is great, by the way -- reminds me of an advertisement I believe was used by the Presbyterians. It had a picture of Jesus above the headline "You won't meet God's gift to women in a single's bar."
I don't think the ad meant to suggest that Jesus could satisfy all of the demands a woman would expect to meet were she to venture into a singles bar. But the idea that a spiritual person -- even the Messiah -- would come to save the whole person and not just the part that survives bodily death is significant. It speaks to liberation theology, and reminds us of James' admonishment that faith without acts is dead. The word "minister" literally means to tend to another's needs. Truly, if we are whole and affectionate people, we are probably already somebody's minister.
Let us care for each other in all matters as if we were put here to be each other's helpmate -- which I believe we were. The fact that this type of equal relationship runs counter to the damaging practices of abusive priests is further evidence of the departure of the Catholic church from God's way.
--cwr
05/16 |
very good piece. writerly and penetrating.
santanu borah, india
--SB
05/11 |
Thank you, Dear Sister, for the wonderful essay!
--DTD
05/09 |
For all you Catholics: Go ahead and believe want you want, but if you are followers of Catholic faith, wouldn't it be a sin for you to be at nerve.com?
--cj
05/07 |
I believe you are in error when you state that there is no evidence to the idea that Christ was celibate. The bible clearly says that having relations outside of marriage is a sin, and since Christ never married, and he never sinned, then logically he was celibate. Not only that, in that the bible teaches that to think of sinning is the same thing as sinning, Christ never even had a sinful thought with regards to sex or any other depravity.
--djs
05/05 |
Your right Jesus did not teach celibacy, although on the other hand he did uphold the basic beliefs of the jewish faith, (notice i said beliefs not laws)which does teach virginity until marriage. Okay, we both know that none of us are very good on that issue, Lord knows I have failed, and will continue to fail, but that is part of the goodness of knowing his grace. Which is that no matter how often we trip, fall, or walk away from Him, God always forgives us, and welcomes us back like a loving father.He is not this overbearing, mean father expecting perfection from us, although he does want us to stive for christlike perfection. But I believe that is more in the ways we show love, forgiveness, and mercy than whether we live our lives according to some preset rules and laws on behavior.
I'm sorry, don't mean to be preachy, just sharing thoughts.I haven't ever really understood the concept of guilt, although many christians suffer this guilt no matter what denomination they are. I have never understood it,I have suffered it, but never understood it because all I can see is Christ's sacrifice, God's grace and forgivness, and the Holy Spirits ministring of His love.
I am deeply disturbed by the sexual abuse in the catholic church, but don't be decieved into beliving it does not happen elsewhere, I have been a member of churches that have had similar scandals. It is wrong, ist is disturbing and sad, but unfortunatly it is one of the easiest places for christians to fail. I don't know why, but it is. And often it his becuase of the pedastel we place our leaders upon, that their sin looks so much worse to us. When in actuality, they are humans, not super holy humans, not perfect humans, but simply humans who are striving to better understand God's love and share their learnings with us. I think we need to quit expecting them to be some holier creation, and look upon them as friends and brothers and sisters in the day to day struggle to be more christlike. Remember God's grace and forgivness is the only reason we can enjoy heaven when all is over.
--ccs
05/05 |
I've maintained for years that my first big crush was on Star Trek's Mr. Spock, but I've been reminded of the truth that he had a predecessor who was, simply put, a very tough act to follow...
--JEV
05/03 |
I agree, I believe that lisa gabrielle is going to go to hell for this.
--J-LR
05/03 |
Sadly, Lisa knows absolutely NOTHING about being a real Christian...about having a PERSONAL
relationship with Jesus and being a JOINT HEIR with Jesus to the Kingdom of Heaven. All of it can
be hers, should she understand that her foul words and ways are viewed by God as another nail
in the hand of Jesus on the cross, repent and turn away from her worldly pleasures and snares
and accept the forgiveness that is awaiting her upon her request. Her 'article' is truly offensive to
anyone that sincerely loves the Lord.
--MM
05/03 |
The author is incorrect when she states that Protestant denominations have not faced sex scandals and that they attract healthy, wholesome, sexually mature candidates to the ministry. As a Lutheran pastor, I know of plenty of cases of sexual misconduct by pastors. There is something about our pastoral role (Protestant and Catholic alike) that fuzzes out the boundaries that should be maintained. We often become (incorrectly) like family to our parishioners. We deal in very intimate details of people's lives. Anyone (!) who does not know how to maintain a healthy sense of self-differentiation can become fodder for the next headline with their sexual indiscretion.
--ctp
05/02 |
One of the big questions in this article is, "Why not allow priests to get a little nookie?" Well, I'm only 18 but I've seen a lot of messed up stuff at work and at school. Just walking around sometimes I see how no one cares about anything anymore. Ok, so I'm neither a virgin nor a saint, but when I walk into a big chapel on Easter Sunday or on Christmas Eve I honestly feel at peace. I see the big statues and hear whispered prayer and I feel that, nowadays, at least something is still sacred. While I can't ignore the scandal that some very corrupt men have induced upon my church, I really don't think it's grounds to start denouncing a figure that has brought millions of people something to believe in.
--D.A.
05/02 |
When one looks at the history of celibacy in the Catholic Church, it soon becomes apparent that this state of life became mandatory due to financial considerations, not because priests were supposed to emulate Christ by remaining single. When one focuses more specifically upon the medieval period, we can clearly see that church property was donated by kings and princes in exchange for faithful service. A controversy arose when married priests in turn left this property to their heirs. To make a long story short, celibacy soon followed as a requirement for ordination, so as to prevent such property transactions between heirs. (There was nothing theological in the celibacy directive.) As a side note to this history, it is interesting to note that the imposition of celibacy in 1139 was not the end of married priests. We now know that secret marriages took place after 1139, whereby married priests continued to serve. Unfortunately, the Council of Trent and the infamous Inquisition sought out such marriages, whereupon Trent served as a catalyst for several centuries of mandatory celibacy.
--ni
05/02 |
I have to admit the number of cases involving priests in the US is very disturbing. Out of over 40,000 priests in the US even several hundred alleged cases is astounding. Several hundred cases involving Presbyterian ministers or pastors would be newsmaking. Who started the idea of celibacy several hundred years ago anyway? Wasnt there a married pope for Gods sakes (no pun intended)? Go to AA meetings (if you have a desire to stop drinking) and be amazed as to how many excatholics fill the room. Most main stream religions in the US do not have an avenging "God" who will strike one dead due to thinking one of the 7 Sins.
--DMN
05/01 |
A really thought-provoking and entertaining piece. Perhaps the entertainment value is a bit higher, since LG does flatly misrepresent some things--especially, as many have noted, the presence of sexual abuse in other denominations. (I was a victim of abuse by a Lutheran pastor while I was in confirmation.) At the same time, the basic point about the Catholic church's attitude toward sexuality is very well put (I don't think I've heard it expressed quite this way!). Lifting up celibacy as a "higher" or more "spiritual" form of existence can't help but convey the message that physicality in general, and sex in particular, is lower. It's the body-soul duality, in which the body and its desires and needs are denigrated, and the soul elevated. It's a very dangerous, and non-biblical idea. Our bodies are God's "very good" creation, and should be celebrated--albeit in ways that are life-giving to all involved. God's redemption, according to Jewish and good Christian teaching, is not from our bodies, but encompasses our whole beings (and creation as well). Religion should provide a basis and guidelines for living that elevate, rather than denegate our physical beings. Celibacy sends a false, and damaging message.
--JSH
04/30 |
Some things to keep in mind...
1. the percentage of priests involved is LOWER than the
percentage of married adults involved in similar
behavior;
2. this is NOT a pedophilia problem; over 95 percent of the
cases involved post-pubescent males; it is a problem of
homosexuality in the priesthood;
3. most of the cases are about allegations that occurred
20 - 30 years ago;
4. the whole issue can be boiled down to 3 things -
fidelity, fidelity, fidelity; the problem isn't the
Church instituted by Christ or its beliefs; it's a
problem of some of its members being unfaithful to
their freely taken vows.
--erm
04/29 |
I just spent my Sunday sponsoring my nephew at his confirmation. The Bishop, who also heads a parish, and who performed the ceremony, spent a little too much time on this issue. It is clear that the overwhelming majority of the priests are very upset over this issue. The pedophilia issue is not being ignored. Nor will the conservative structure just let it slide because the parishioners will no longer let it. This is a crossroads for the Church and you will see a million answers proposed by the Church itself (that has already started) as they grapple with what will satisfy the laity. At some point there will be something that sticks and that everyone will be satisfied with. Hopefully, the leadership catches on sooner rather than later. But the answer will be within the constructs of the Church. The Church survived for 2,000 years, anyone want to bet me that it won't survive this.
--mean
04/29 |
I enjoyed the article, and thought that the author made a number of valid points. However, there are two issues that I would like to pick up on. The first is the rather odd claim that other churchs do not suffer the same scandals as does the Catholic church - in Australia we are still suffering through a major scandal where it was revealed that the current Govenor General, back when he was an Anglican Bishop, covered up a number of paedophilia claims made againt his priests. Indeed, one of the preists accused was married at the time. This has not been the first time such claims have been made against the Anglican clergy in Australia, and I doubt that it will be the last. Clearly we cannot lay all the blame on celebacy in the Catholic church. A better explaination is that some people (Catholics, Anglicans, and those in many other religions) see the clergy as an escape, where they will be removed from the "tempations of the flesh." This arguement suggests that some young people, on realising that they are drawn to paedophila, enter the priesthood in the hope of finding a way to overcome (or at least avoid) their disorders. But, as we have seen, within the priesthood they don't find help, but simply protection from their actions.
Personally, I really hope the Catholic church finally starts to clean itself up, and acknowledge their responsibilities both to the community and their preists. Somehow, though, I can't see anything more than temporary fixes with the current conservative structure.
--AJ
04/28 |
This is not about gender, i.e. heterosexual or homosexual behavior. This is pedophilia for the most part. There are priests who have sex with consenting adult men or women. That is not a crime except in the eyes of the Vatican
--dlk
04/28 |
With respect, the author does not state that marriage is the answer. Rather that sex, between consenting adults, whether gay or straight, should be allowed to Catholic priests. The ones who want and clearly crave it seem to be getting it anyway. Why not allow sex to those who do not wish to be celibate? Why not? It seems so arcane for the Catholic Church to ignore this idea.
--SAT
04/28 |
With kind regards I disagree
Definition: A man who has sex with a man is a homosexual, regardless of the age of the men.
So what your suggesting is that if gay men just got married and got some from their wife then they would no longer rape young boys?
You’re also taking the position that you can solve sexual deviance with a conventional marriage. This just isn’t so. Many child molesters have been married.
I think you’re more interested in furthering your own political viewpoint than actually solve the problem.
There is no evidence that there is anymore child molestation in the Catholic Church, than exists in any other organization its size. The best statistic I’ve heard was that the total number of child molesters within the church was about 2%, a terrible number for sure, but not the rampant crisis the news would like us to believe.
The real issue here is the cover up, if your going to be upset about something, why not that?
I suppose it doesn’t further your cause as well?
As for Protestants and Jews not having sex scandals, you simple misinformed the worst sex scandal in history was from a Protestant minister who rape hundreds of boys with in a few years in the 1980’s. That alone blows your entire argument out of the water.
Why don’t you go after NAMBLA, which is far more dangerous than the church in my book.
I’m not Catholic, I’m not even religious, but I recognize a witch-hunt when I see one.
Reference:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html
http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/tenmyths.html
It’s amazing what 5 minutes of research will teach you.
--CE
04/27 |
It seems Mark's brain ran out of gas awhile ago. He resorts to sputtering about the Crusades and the Inquisition and some nonsense about Nostradamus along with a blurt about celibacy being tied in with power. The Crusades were a response to the destruction caused by the Moslems. The Spanish govt killed off more people than did the Church during the Inquisition. Like Lisa the Toronto reporter, he offers nothing to back up his claims. Instead he resorts to persuasion by whining and bellowing. It might work with the high school sophomores who read this, but not many others.
--kld
04/27 |
If you would be interested in sexual or romantic connections to Jesus and his wound you should read "Constructing Medieval Sexuality" Its an interesting collection of writings, and there is one section where an author discusses the armpit wound of Jesus and its connection to female sexuality. (i wrote a paper on this topic so its interesting to me)
--KED
04/27 |
Well written, thoughtful, provocative. Good job on a difficult subject. It does not appear, however, that the Catholic church will leave the Middle Ages soon. The average age of a priest is 57 (maybe that will solve their problem---age!)In Spain, for instance, there used to be 25,000 young men in seminaries. Today, about 2,000. And Spain is considered largely Catholic. Will the church change?
--PB
04/26 |
Having grown up Roman Catholic and gone through high school being thought by Jesuits priests, I couldn't agree with you more. your article is excellent. Also the present scandal and one that has existed since there were alter boys has little to do with Celibacy but everything to do with the abuse of power and if there is one thing that the catholic church is good at it is this. Just remember the crusades the inquisition the treatment of Jews the list is endless. All this from a church who stated infaticley that we are born into sin. I love sex and spirituality in all its assorted forms to bad none of the above is present in the Roman Catholic church. Having worked as a volunteer at the former Calgary sexual assault center I have seen the results of what ignorance can do. The only thing I have read about the Roman Catholic church that I hope comes true is the fact that Nostrodamus predicted its down fall in 2015. I am thrilled that I will be around to witness such a fantastic spectacle.
Mark
--MJM
04/26 |
You certainy didn't think very hard when you were writing this, and more than half of your "historical facts" (let's not even get IN to the current ones) are not facts at all. I think you owe it to alot of people to get your story straight and then apologize- and no, sarcastic one, I myself am not Catholic.
Also, the idiocy in the contention that celibacy leads to sexual deviance, that celibacy is always political, and that people who have sex are LESS fucked up than people who are trying to be responsible about their decisions and choose celibacy to do it, is just loaded with half-assed assumptions that are not founded in anything but YOUR arrogant politics.
And no, I'm not a virgin or a republican either. Just someone who values intelligence over sensationalist commentary.
--EJ
04/26 |
You're not alone.
Presbyterian Minister Robin Heckathorn molested a good number of Jr. High age girls in our church.
He was supposedly happily married to a beautiful woman.
He was asked to leave the Presbyterian Church leadership, but he is now working with youth in a different denomination.
Some men, no matter their religious faith, are too weak to lead.
--C.S.
04/26 |
I'm surprised by the author's comment that other faith groups have not faced public charges of sexual abuse. The Anglican Church of Canada has been dealing with the "legacy" of sexual abuse scandals for the last few years. The litigation it faced almost brought it to the point of bankruptcy. The accusations brought against the Church by Native Canadians who had been sent to Residential schools are no less serious than those brought recently against Catholic priests.
My point is not that every group's scandals need to be aired here, but rather that the argument that the current Catholic Church issue is tied to celibacy does not hold as much water as Ms. Gabriele seems to think. The rates of abuse by Catholic priests are in line with the U.S. population at large. It seems to me to be an extension of the problem that leads to sexual abuse by a parent or teacher, etc. It is an abuse of power, not a reaction to an unnatural prohibition.
--SB
04/26 |
yep...i agree with this comment/piece...now i'm beginning to wonder about the other religions too...i know Buddhists use women for sexual gratification also...and THAT is a "non-religion"...this is why i gave up religion and devoted myself to science...show me the meat!...why can't priest marry?...the so-called son of god slept with a woman...surely it wasn't against his beliefs...what is wrong with satisfying the needs of the body?...after all, we are still ANIMALS..we are denying this fact...like it is "dirty"...come on people...join the human race!!...there is NO ONE out there...they are intelligent enough to leave us alone...
--obp
04/26 |
I got to join in. I am a former priest, laicized after I got sexually active. When I was a young curate, I sure wish I had run into you. Little boys are not my thing and I woulhave loved to wallow in sexual immaturity with you on your knees before me.
--crm
04/26 |
Mzzzzz Lisa clearly has no concept of the deeper meaning of celibacy. Thinking it is somehow an 11th century construct tied into land grabs is sadly hysterical for its stupidity.
She should try a new exercise called reading history. Her claim that thousands of priests are involved in the sex scandals is beyond bogus and certainly beyond her ability to verify. The number is far, far smaller. FACT: a child is at greater risk from his/her parents and from gays than he/she is from priests with respect to pedophilia and other sex offenses. Lisa, quit your day job.
--em
04/26 |
You Rock!
--DKH
04/26 |
Hey!
Great editorial! I was wondering if you could answer this question for me (anyone can try)...
Has the catholic church accepted the theory of evolution?
email me at igocommando57@hotmail.com
thanks!
--sjm
04/26 |
Thank you. Thank you for putting into words what thousands of "good little Catholic girls" have thought for years. Twelve years of Catholic school under my belt and what I like to consider a healthy relationship with Catholicism, and I am still continually frustrated by their complete refusal to look at the historical background of their own organization.
Maybe some day the Church will come to realize that ordaining women and married priests and contraception and homosexuality are not things to be afraid of. But in the mean time, many of us who grew up in Catholicism will continue to shake our heads and wonder at the Church's semming lack of interest in its own history. The Church has been both a comfort and a frustration to me. But I have learned to seperate my religious worship from my sexual self. I can only hope that someday the true majesty of the Church will be fully realized through participation in out modern world ona level that real people can relate to.
--AS
04/25 |
Other cultures need to be considered here. Monks takes vowes of celebacy for spiritual assimilation of there spirit. Our culture is very sexually orientated. Living in seclusion I would believe is more appropriate for this type of penance. I do believe you should look further into other sects: Budhist, Hindu, Jain...
--CB
04/25 |
Thanks for the article, your point of contention really hit home. Catholicism is really bizarre!
--cfs
04/24 |
The conclusion that celibacy somehow leads to sexual abuse is extremely tenuous.
The Catholic doctrine of priestly celibacy was established even before the Council of Nicea, way back in the 4th century.
Your argument bears the burden of proof, which you offer in short supply. If you can offer no proof, your opinion is just a diatribe, and probably not worthwhile to contend - it's a fool's errand to debate an issue with someone whose mind is closed.
--KS
04/24 |
It's frustrating how little research is being done on sex scandals and religion. A while back, for my own edification, I'd done some research on Judaism and synagogues, and scandal---sexual--a friend of mine's son was molested by a respected Rabbi and subsequently killed himself. The only thing I could find was a stat which put the level of inapproriate behaviour between Jewish Rabbis, leaders, et al and their members, at roughly proportionate to the rest of the population, vis-a-vis sex abuse. Same with other Christian factions. Proportionate to the rest of the population. But Catholicism holds a particularly vile record. If the numbers are correct, we're talking tens of thousands of victims and thousands of perpetrators.
It's scary. So though I know the author's exaggerating a point about other religions being sex-scandal free, I don't think you can compare at all. The Catholic Church has a problem on their hand which is mythic in proportion, and good on Nerve for not holding back.
--VS
04/24 |
Dear Lisa,
I loved your article, especially the part that pointed out that celebacy was not an inherent part of Catholocism. However, you missed on one small detail-- Protestant churches have also been rocked by sex scandles albeit on a more local level. There was a great piece on NPR on Monday the 21st of April about this very thing. Protestant sex scandles more often involve males with young females than the Catholic ones, but I think anytime you have pre and pubescent children around older (almost exclusively) men there will be some who cross the line- so, in my opinion, not only do we need to not block sex among Catholic clergy, all Churches need a policy on contact between older men and children that provides safeguards for the children. Thanks for the article!
--CB
04/24 |
On the other hand, notice that a policy where the church
attempts to enforce celibacy upon priests does have some
good side effects. It would tend to breed out the gene
for religion from the human race.
--ans
04/24 |
Reading through all these pieces except for a select few shows an unbelievable misunderstanding of the Catholic religion. I can't even begin to start and frankly at this stage won't bother. Problem is that those who grew up Catholic and are writing don't even understand their former or current religion. (And I will grant you that some priests don't either.) Too bad, misunderstanding leads to useless debate.
--mean
04/24 |
Oh Gawd, I used to masturbate with a large wooden rosary, ewwww.
Forgive me Father!
--I D
04/24 |
I read the article and thought, wow, yes, yes, yes. I am so glad to finally read something which states very simply "Let them have physicaly connection" because with priests, and other abusers in the church, there's clearly a loss of spiritual connection here. Perhaps they can find their way back through the vulnerability, not the denial of the flesh? It's worth a thought and a try, however, reading my NYT this morning, it seems celibacy was not discussed with any rigour, i the Vatican yesterday.
Anyway keep up the good work, and Lisa wear a bullet-proof raincoat because you will suffer the slings and arrows... but hopefully only in this life. But if you're going to hell for these things, I sure as hell am going with you.
XO
LJJ
--ljj
04/24 |
I'm not quite sure if this is a confused op-ed, hate literature, or simply bad journalism. Maybe I'm lucky, and it's all three.
The author's Jesus fetish aside, the piece could use a lot of work.
First, and foremost, statistically speaking, sexual abuse is neither a) rampant among Catholic clergy and b) unique to the Catholic church. Check facts and you will find that this kind of thing happens in other religions (the Anglican and Lutheran church have had well-reported incidents of it in the past decade), as well as youth sports (Sheldon Kennedy, anyone?), civic associations, and the education system.
Secondly, although this would undermine your personal anti-celibacy polemic, you should investigate other sources of information on Catholic clergy and sexuality. Richard Sipe - the only source you mention - has the distinction of having a very public agenda which is quite in opposition to the Church's teaching on sexuality, and as such, his testimony by itself makes for very poor supporting evidence. His conclusions are forgone, thus casting doubt on the validity of both his evidence, and hypotheses. Next time, do the academic thing, and research multiple sources, and particularly sources offering a wide variety of opinions.
Finally, your case against priestly celibacy is a red herring, presented on the flimsiest of grounds. To argue that having married priests would put an end to abuse by clergy is, well, naive. Perhaps you view marriage as a tonic for sexual misconduct; if so, you should investigate the incidence of sexual misconduct among married people. You might be shocked to discover that, quite to the contrary, marriage does not solve everything. In a sense, your argument implies the same sort of myopia as "you're not gay, you just haven't found the right woman", which is not only simple-minded, but also highly insulting to anyone who is honestly and openly committed to celibacy (like, say, the Dalai Lama).
To be quite frank, your article is less an argument against priestly celibacy (and quite a shoddy one at that), and more simply a tirade against a code of ethics you either do not understand, or just dislike. Neither is of any intellectual consequence. Serious debate merits serious thought, and there is none to be had in your article.
Had you bothered with earnest research, rather than resorting to facile ranting, you would find that your apparent facts (the shrinking laity, the exodus of smart women, the lack of men of substance in the clergy) are actually fiction.
Please, next time, spare us the scattered tirade, and offer something more substantial in its place.
--KS
04/24 |
What an enlightening read. I lost my religion, like 50 times. I grew up catholic, lived in a catholic family, a catholic country, and went to catholic school for three years. As a child, I didn't really care about religion since I didn't know this world. I even have fond memories going to this lesson my grandmother setup for the kids in the neighborhood. It was short-lived. I remember it all as an experiment really. My grandmother was very serious, yet lighthearted about it. My friends and I went and it was kind of fun since there were also girls in the group. When I moved to America, it was a familiar and different experience. I really began questioning religion during this time. I rebelled against my religion, but mostly against my own parents who were vehement about going to church. Now I see that they were just being parents, but at that time, I really thought it was evil of them and of course, it lead to questioning god him or herself. It is kind of weird now where I belong. I cannot say I am an atheist or a catholic. "Losing my religion" is a vital lesson to me. It gives the author-ity back to the author?... so thanks Lisa.
--cb
04/23 |
Loved your article! I'm a happy atheist, and but can remember the tender "ministrations" of an Anglican choirmaster when I was a boy. What a miserable lot!
Although obviously, Lisa, you haven't been keeping up with the Australian Anglican sex scandal currently trying to bury its head and go away. The Governor-General of Australia, a still-practicing head of the Anglican Church in this country, has been found to have not handled the serious sexual deviations of some of his underlings terribly well, to say the least. He doesn't seem to understand that Paedophilia is unacceptable to anyone except those comitting it.. but he will, in time. We hope.
But it's certainly not only the Catholic Church who has the problem!
--PMR
04/23 |
A wonderful opinion. I really enjoyed reading it. Not being religious myself, but spiritual, I found it fascinating to find that not all Catholics are adhering to the impossible tenets of their religion, and are maturing as sexual beings. To go against something that has been a part of your life since you cannot remember, that takes guts, and I regognise that bravery that Catholics such as the author take.
--JE
04/23 |
Lisa,
I thoroughly enjoyed reading this.
Thanks for being you.
--ZS
04/23 |
The argument is not reverse racism. I specifically said the Church can be an explanation, but no an excuse. You may understand the source of the problem, but you shouldn't lay the blame there. People have the opportunity to respond to things by either moving forward or getting caught in it. No one says moving forward is easy, but everyone faces obstacles. Moreover, how other religions have moved "forward" has created their own problems. Do we love the Southern Baptists who have moved forward, but have many sects with warped views of society more backwards than Catholicism. Another point to ponder, for years I despised the Catholic Church, but due to work I was assigned to work on homeless issues. Every program I went to seemed to be run by ... the Roman Catholic Church. Over time, I was able to see a few others, but the amount of work done by the Catholic Church on social services is astounding in NYC. And the programs are quite liberal! Even the AIDS progams (where despite the Church's teachings and denials, condoms get distributed!!!!). And when I asked if Catholicism was preached, they said "only if asked for." And that was true. However, I did hear complaints about forced religious observance from other religions' programs. (One of which I had to deal with and stop since it was receiving government funding.) The service of the Catholic Church to the poor is unmet by any other religion in the world. I'll grant you that the Church is behind the curve sexually, but in dealing with poverty issues it is far out front. Sex may be the point of Nerve, but it is not the point of life (no snide remarks here... I know sex creates life). Everyone seems to harp on the negative and never see the positive. How many religions have a leader who preaches forgiveness and every year visited his would-be assassin in jail to pray with him? Or who speaks out against the excesses of capitalism? Or who has the humility to ask for forgiveness for the sins of Catholics past and present to those who were offended? Forgiveness is so key to Catholicism and religion in general, but lately in forgiving and asking for forgiveness, only one Church leader seems to be leading the way. Blast Catholicism all you want, but at least give it its due.
--mean
04/23 |
P.S. I loved this piece. Very well written. And, the fact that it sparked this debate is proof of it's value. Well done! Peace.
--JSM
04/23 |
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church has been one of, if not the, slowest religious institution to alter it's policies and practices to meet the needs of it's population. You could argue that the Protestant, Anglican, etc. Churches were those changes, but it does not negate the fact, while most religions have made slight, yet significant, adjustments to meet the modern needs of it's people, the Catholic Church has remained in stasis.
Arguing that the Catholic Church is above reproach, and people need to look at themselves is the same as whites arguing that such thing as reverse racism exists. It's stupid, boring, and, above all, baseless. Allowing celebacy and marriage may not solve all crimes of pedophilia, and will most certainly create others. But the problems of the Catholic Church are not the amalgomatic issues of sick individuals. They are symptoms of a sick institution. I would gladly welcome new problems, if they came about because the Church showed it care more about the state of its paritioners than the state of itself as a power. Religion is very much about community. While Catholics themselves may understand these, and local priests may as well, Church dogma, practice, and institutions, clearly, do not. Stop arguing "reverse racism." Wake up.
--JSM
04/23 |
If there is any serious irony intended in the piece< I think TV and I both missed. People tend to love to blame others for their own failures. The Church made me do this, my boyfriend made me do that, etc.... Wake up here, folks. No one makes you do anything. You do it. If you give into pressure, well, welcome to your own failure and don't blame the Church or anyone else. Blaming any religion is like blaming Islam for Osama Bin Laden. I think most Nervies would think that ridiculous. Well blaming Catholicism is about as ridiculous too. Wake up folks, be responsible for yourself and quit allowing others to blame others for their own failures. It may be a reason, but it is never an excuse.
--mean
04/23 |
"TV"'s missing the irony in the piece emasculates the rest of his commentary.
--env
04/23 |
This is one of the best pieces I have ever read in Nerve.
--env
04/23 |
Wow feedback from the author herself. What L.G. forgets to understand that we place priests in an impossible situation and in some respects the Catholic Church fostered that, i.e., they are God's representative and therefore we Catholics think of them as God. But Jesus, use your brain here. When I was in first grade an 80 yo priest told me that all Jews were condemned to hell. Now my dad was Jewish, but at 6 yo I knew that the priest was nuts. I never told my mom this until I was in my twenties (she said she would have pulled me from school). Maybe at that stage I knew that priests were human, very human. Frankly, you may resent your parish, your upbringing and all that. You may believe that Catholicism oozes sexuality (a little weird to me, but to each their own). But frankly, take a look at your own religion through educated eyes. You will find it is pretty amazing. Now just a couple of points, it is not a sin to be a homosexual... it is a sin to perform a homosexual act. I know this is splitting hairs, but that's what legalisms tend to do. Next, just because you commit a homosexual act does not mean you are not allowed to be a Catholic. It's a sin (on their terms if you want, not that I agree), and lots of people sin (hey, does the Church excommunicate cheating spouses). As for religious zealots who gay bash. Well, there are all kinds. I know enough leftists radicals who do the same thing on others. They are both usually wrong (every once in a great while an extremist will have a very good point -- case in point, abolitionists in the 19th century). Hey, we are talking about human beings and no one, not me or you, is perfect. Should priests be allowed to marry? Probably, but guess what L.G., it won't solve any of the problems you're talking about (it will solve others) and it will open up new ones, like the married priest who runs away with a parishioner's wife. Flip solutions lead to poor situations.
--mean
04/23 |
Love it! Lisa Gabrielle is right on the money. As a former Catholic gay virgin and currently happy gay agnostic, I can vouch for the whole cycle of shame she hints at. Yup, queer teenage boys like me, though they may not always buy the brimstone doctrine (I never did) nevertheless find it hard to exit the inner hell--how could I ever be "okay" if even my fantasy life was sinful?
I attended a public high school, but I later taught for a year at an all-boys Catholic prep school in Manhattan, and let me tell ya, those boys were about the most girl-hating, foul-mouthed, sex-obsessed kids I've ever met.
Lisa wonders who the gay priests are having sex with, besides boys. My guess is that the majority of them, nowadays, have either learned to make do with their left hand (what you might call "genital celibacy")or are in active relationships with men their own age. I was shocked a year ago when a former priest I was dating told me half the guys in his seminary were in sexual relationships with other seminarians. Half--and that was around 1978.
An undropped shoe in this church's scandal is indeed the official cover-up of how many priests are clearly, self-consciously gay. It's a bigger minefield for the Vatican than child molestation, I think, even though here in the U.S. it's a much smaller moral issue. Imagine derocking 33 percent of your priests.
I have to admit to schadenfreude on this issue--I'm so enjoying the unfrocking of all this sexual hypocrisy. And when the Vatican finally does say it's okay to wear condoms, I hope the number of African and Asian children who have died from AIDS because of religious pressure to "not talk about condoms or homosexuality" will be measured and added to the inscription on Catholicism's tomb.
--Marc D.
--MD
04/23 |
Great piece! So true, Jesus, too, stirred sexual feelings in me as a young girl. I had a crush on the Jesus from my Bible, (the one where he's throwing his head back and laughing, a white Bible, rather common Communion present). And I also very strongly believe that sexuality should be an intrinsic part of spirituality.
Thanks again Nerve!
Jude M.
--JM
04/23 |
TO T.V., RE: lack of research. cin.org, and Father Mateo, are two of the most popular Catholic info web sites. Below is what is currently posted re: masturbation. Also, catholic.org, and other popular on-line clearinghouses weigh in on homosexuality.
1)"Homosexuality is not a disease or a genetic problem or an alternative lifestyle. It is a sure sign of God's wrath on humanity...For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" (Romans 1:26,27).
2)I must warn you clearly that your profession of faith is vain and as long as you continue living in the sin of homosexuality you are lost and without hope of heaven.The homosexual act is a sin.
(Cf. Gen 19; Lev 18:22; 20:13; Rom 1:24-7; 1 Cor 6:9-10).
3)Dear Father Mateo, Is self-abuse categorized as a venial or mortal sin and| why?
In itself, masturbation is a mortal sin because it negates the whole purpose of one of our most sacred powers, the power to fashion family and procreate human life.
T.V.: I wish we could all attend an enlightened Catholic Mass in Greenwich Village, but alas, me and my friends had to make do with our backwater parrish.
Lisa Gabriele
--LG
04/23 |
Absolutely! I couldnt agree with you more, but I must point out that you forgot Frank Zappa on your list of musicians who immortalized the slutty catholic girl image, as well as a number of 80s metal groups. Can't forget "Girl's School"!
--JC
04/23 |
Human beings are capable of extraordinary acts of good and evil, and no organization, religion, or government has cornered the market on abuse. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--gs
04/23 |
Please. I'm a Catholic. I'm hurt and angry by what's happening in the church, and at the reactions of the hierarchy. Their reaction to the current sex scandal is entirely ineffective and overly protective of the status quo. Yet, reading this diatribe, with its lack of research, blatant anti-Catholicism -- one of the last remaining, socially acceptable biases -- simplistic and over-arching generalizations, and poor grammar -- my friends and I, not "Me and my friends. . ." -- makes me crazy.
The church has amended its stances on many of the points the author used -- damnation of the onanistic (no mas), hatred of homosexuals (have you been to mass in Greenwich Village to see how those hated folks actively participate in the mass itself?). The author's assertion that no other religions have sex scandals is ludicrous-- read the papers. Plenty of Protestant ministers and Jewish Rabbis are pedophiles & pederasts. Many Protestant and Jewish folks have hang-ups about sex as well as Catholics. It's surprising that this Monty-Pythonesque stereotype persists -- especially in light of the fact that married Catholics have more sex than any other group.
More than anything else, the author's thesis, that celibacy leads to pedophilia & pederasty, underscores the simplistic thinking that went into this essay. These are diseases, not reactions to a lack of sex. That said, disease or not, I believe that these men should be thrown into the general population of their local prison, and get what fellow inmates dish out to this type of perpetrator within said institution. Despite the scant research on pedophilia/pederasty, married men are the segment of the population most likely to be sexual abusers of children, and we can assume that they have ready access to sexual release. Ending celibacy will not cure what presently ills the Catholic Church. More rigorous screening of the sexually and emotionally immature men who can be attracted to the priesthood should help. Ending priestly celibacy requirements would also help to attract a different type of candidate as well. Women should be permitted to be priests -- why automatically disqualify half of your potential population of candidates? -- and male (and female) priests should be allowed to marry. Such permissions would allow greater breath of practical human experience to enter the church and permit these priests to better minister to their parishes. Despite such a sweeping change in the workings of the church there would still be pedophiles and pederasts within this non-celibate, married, male/female priesthood. In that distant future, when a married priest abuses an underage parishioner, the true meter of how far the church has come will lie within its reaction to that scandal, for it is the hierarchy's (lack of) reaction to these allegations that has so angered the flock.
--tv
04/23 |
If the priests don't play the game, they shouldn't be making up the rules. religion sucks. NOT spritiuality, but religion. It's been the cause of more neuroses and wars and world problems than just about anything.
--CKP
04/23 |
I am Catholic and my wife is Episcopal. I think losing celibacy trades one set of problems for another. In her church, the last two priests, both married, ran off with parishioners, both married. Not exactly a great situation for the parishioners. The article also ignores some interesting research by Andrew Greeley, a priest/socialogist/author of steamy novels, who noted that women in general like priests as they are. They like the fact (or maybe the illusion) that the priest is not going to hit on them. Finally, I find the gay issue totally irrelevant, as priests are not supposed to have sex, so the fact that they have a sexual orientation hits me as unimportant to their ministry. I am not saying that priests should not be allowed to be married, have sex. Just that the answers are not simple and require a look at the problems that arise with the solutions. Moreover, please don't tell me that the end of celibacy will end pedophilia. Married adults are pedophiles so just assuming a solution of that problem with priests that are allowed to fuck hits me as the ultimate illusion. Signed, a product of Catholic education....
--mean
04/23 |
At least within Christianity, there hasn't been the move you imagine awayfrom fetishizing sexuality. True, there isn't the perponderance of sexual imagery in the church, the insistence of celibacy in the clergy. But, while the topic may be treated like a dirty secret in the progressive pulpits of the land, nowhere has the issue gone away, nowhere has any church heirarchy I'm aware of given official sanction to sexuality outside of marriage.
Out in the mainstream, and over in the parralel culture of the religious right, the question of question of sexuality is still as alive and well as it is in the most regressive part of the Catholic church. We lack certain... refinements on the topic, but when if you hear Dr. James Dobson talk about which parts of the wife's body can be touched, and in what ways, by the husband, you'd feel right at home.
It isn't precisely that having sex would necessarily send you to hell, if only after abjuring the act. What was explicit in the church I went to as a child, was that to have sex before marriage would so alter your relationship with the church that you would not feel welcome there. That this was so was regrettable, said the pastor, but the problem was inherent in sex, and not the church (as he went on to excoriate pastors who would say otherwise).
In turn, we do have our sex scandals. A friend of mine recently recalled the Presbyterian minister who mollested some of his friends. While Garry Wills suggests that the priesthood may in fact appeal to people of alternative sexual valences, because of its insistence on celibacy in the priesthood, that isn't what has sparked this latest debacle. The problem is simply that whereas most protestant churches are relatively autonomous, isolating scandal to its immediate locus, the extensive Catholic heirarchy has an interest in maintaining the appearance of its purity, and the power to cover up unfortunate infractions of that impurity.
In the end it isn't sexual attitudes that have caused this scandal. Most of them are just as widespread in protestant groups. The very heirarchy of the Catholic church is at fault and must be reformed.
--JRM
04/23 |
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