Female Musicians Never Get Laid

The bassist from Los Campesinos! gives us the awful truth about the sex lives of touring bands.

By Ellen Campesinos!

This summer, we asked the members of indie-pop collective Los Campesinos! for sex advice. With a new album, Hello Sadness, out this week, bassist Ellen Campesinos! weighs in with a report on the unfulfilling sex lives of female rock musicians.

Neko Case recently claimed via Twitter that "Ladies in bands don't get ANY action," and as a female musician with a frustrated libido, I can sympathize. I've been playing bass in a touring band for five years, and I've had intimate relations on the road four times. (I class intimate relations as third-base-plus, but even if I counted kissing and over-the-clothes fumbling, it would still be a pretty low number.) I'm lucky enough to be in a job where I get to tour the world and meet interesting people, but in my experience, musicians especially females get a lot less then you'd imagine.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm no Marianne Faithfull, and in my old age, I no longer view meaningless sex with the enthusiasm I once did. But I still love flirting, a good kiss, and a dramatic drunken connection, followed by a swift exit. And with the 350-plus gigs we've played, I've had the potential to connect with many attractive men, at least in theory. But in practice, it's not as simple as clicking your fingers and summoning some amorous fan to your backstage tiger-printed love dungeon.

It's not as simple as clicking your fingers and summoning some amorous fan to your backstage tiger-printed love dungeon.

The first problem is who you sleep with. The most obvious candidate is the fan, or, as he's traditionally known, "the groupie." This is a really unappealing prospect. There's something about the power imbalance of that situation that makes me feel sad. I wouldn't want to sleep with someone whose lust is solely driven by the fact I'm in a band they like. In that scenario, I'm up on a pedestal; there's no room for me to impress them. Where's the fun in that? I like the chase. If I don't need to put any effort into seducing someone, there's no tension. They don't like me for my witty quips and knowledge of Sweet Valley High books; they like me for being in a band. (And frankly, when it comes to meaningless sex, I couldn't possibly enjoy myself wondering if they had my band's songs mentally soundtracking our foreplay.)

I did kiss a guy who was a big fan of the band once. He liked comic books, I liked comic books, and when I was drunk it seemed like a good idea to invite him into the van the next day for our trip across the country. It was actually not a good idea. It was incredibly awkward, and the van space is a band space, not an "invite a person you don't know for a four-hour drive" space. You're on tour to work (the fact that it's really fun is a great bonus), not to satisfy your libido and make things awkward for everyone else you share a space with. The next time we played a show in that guy's hometown, I ignored his text-message requests to get on the guest list. I hid in the bus, didn't answer his calls, and told my bandmates to tell him I was ill when he knocked on the door. I felt like a total bitch.

Another option for tour sex is the support band, a seemingly logical alternative to the groupie. And as a straight woman you have a plethora of choices, since, like it or not, there are still more men in touring bands than women. I do get a giddy feeling of excitement when the support act first turns up at sound check. Is the drummer as attractive as his Google images portrayed? Yes, he is. But inevitably he has a pretty girlfriend, whom you will meet when you play a show in their hometown. (And she'll bake you all cookies too.)

Even if he's single, touring is like a weird insular microcosm, and pursuing someone in this situation can become distracting and a source of drama. About four years ago, I developed an infatuation with a guitarist we spent a month touring the U.K. with. I was hypnotized by him, and felt so lucky as I watched him flex his guitar arm every night for a month. I would spend the evenings gazing longingly over Rider whiskey at him. But I was a melodramatic, romantic, and insecure twenty-one-year old, and soon found it impossible to relax in his presence, a feeling I began to resent having in "the workplace." We finally got together at a Travelodge on the last night of tour, persuading the man at the front desk to let us have a hotel room for an hour for ten pounds; instead of feeling like I had satisfied some need, I felt a bit empty and seedy.

Commentarium (92 Comments)

Nov 16 11 - 1:13am

Far beyond awesome. If she were here right now, I'd try to charm her with teaching stories and probably end up settling for a kiss on the cheek.

Nov 17 11 - 11:23pm

hey.. she is a book case of narcissistic personality disorder, just google it..

Nov 19 11 - 12:53am

Spot on, maki!!

Jan 04 12 - 9:14pm


Nov 16 11 - 1:19am
guess what?

She speaks the truth.

Nov 17 11 - 7:08pm
Alot of Musos gitit

hello sadness indeed. the title ought to be "THIS Female Musicians Never Get Laid" -- the trouble is the assumption that HER personal issues extend to other female musos. It is hardly a valid assertion without other confirmation. It sounds like some more clarity on needs and interpersonal skills will lead to greater satisfuction. She looks highly doable too, btw...

Nov 16 11 - 1:35am

Why wasn't this article entitled "People Who Choose Not To Get Laid Never Get Laid"?

Hey Ellen, I'm thinking of getting a dog, and I was wondering what kind of dog you think I should get. I don't want a big dog, because my apartment isn't big enough, and I don't want a little dog, because they're yappy. Or a medium size dog, because I feel like that would just be indecisive. I don't want one with hair, because they shed, or one without hair, because... you know, gross.

Also, I don't want a mammal, because I don't want to own an animal in the same biological class as humans. And I'm super uncomfortable with the whole "pet-owner" relationship -- just seems unnatural to me.

So... what kind of dog should I get? I'm not going to lie, my search has been CRAZY frustrating so far! I'm actually writing an article about it for next month's Bark magazine entitled "People Never Own Dogs".

Nov 16 11 - 3:29am

Lmao. Agreed.

Nov 16 11 - 3:35am


Nov 16 11 - 5:18am

How about, "People With Standards Who Choose Not to Lay People They Can't Respect Don't Get Laid"?

Nov 16 11 - 6:36am


I don't know it off the top of my head, but if you hum a few bars, I can probably wing it on this tiny violin I have here.

Nov 16 11 - 3:52pm

Thank you, Jax. After this, "I wouldn't want to sleep with someone whose lust is solely driven by the fact I'm in a band they like," I nearly stopped reading. Do any of us think that male band members are having lots of sex with people who aren't groupies? Do any of us think that Neko Case was talking about anything other than sex with groupies? Nope.

Nov 16 11 - 4:03pm

Not "can't respect", but "aren't attracted to". I don't have a problem with the author's preferences, but let's not pretend it's any different from the guy who complains that he can't get laid, but refuses to date anyone who doesn't look like a Victoria's Secret model. If you think you're entitled to the best, then you're likely to often go without.

Nov 16 11 - 9:49pm

Not finding anyone worthy of sleeping with is a legit complaint in my book.

Nov 17 11 - 5:33am

It would be more legitimate if she wasn't also unwilling to approach a man herself.

Sorry, but a woman who is afraid of being more powerful than a man (and I completely agree with AAC that this is the dynamic at work here), and unwilling to make the first move? That's some pretty regressive shit. It wouldn't be as bad if she seemed to be acknowledging, "I'm a bit old-fashioned this way..." or "I prefer to be slightly submissive in relationships" or whatever, but instead she seemed to be saying, "This is just the way things are."

Nov 17 11 - 3:07pm

Yeah. This article is dumb.
But as far as "power dynamic" goes...I'm a lady but I've never even heard of this band and i doubt any of my hot male friends have either, but if she's into metal heads, i could probably procure a bunch horny guys who also couldn't give two shits about her music to show up and have sex with her after their set.

Nov 20 11 - 7:32pm

I dunno, I liked the article; I can relate. I'm a guy with standards, and they often keep me from getting laid, and then I usually get frustrated. It's very much my problem; I wouldn't want to blame anyone else for it. I don't think Ellen is trying to duck her responsibility for her issues, either. If I read her right, she just wants some sympathy and maybe some thoughtful discussion about the tension that crops up between career, dignity, and libido. It's wicked hard to be firing on all three of those cylinders at once. For all the haters out there -- why is that such a boring topic? It interested the hell out of me.

Nov 21 11 - 1:11am

Nice point. It's one that I make in a post called "Status and sex: On women in bands never getting laid and Norah Vincent’s Self-Made Man," (http://jseliger.com/2011/11/20/status-and-sex-on-women-in-bands-never-ge...) which also argues that a) it appears the two female singers involved evidently aren't willing to make the first moves and b) they probably don't have the same evolutionary incentives to want to get laid by many different people as men do. So perhaps the outcome shouldn't surprise us so much.

Nov 16 11 - 1:54am

Yeah... I kind of agree with Jax. Of course, once you take away groupies, and fellow touring musicians, and actually approaching a guy yourself, you're not going to get laid that often. Why do male rock stars get laid all the time? Because they fuck their groupies. Duh.

Nov 16 11 - 3:53pm


Nov 16 11 - 2:15am

Wow. A bassist who prefers a rhythmic strumming motion and shuns human interaction. Somebody get Ripley's Believe It or Not on the phone.

Nov 16 11 - 11:36pm
Hu Jintao

Yeah man. FUCK bassists. Where's my 2nd string at? Where's my bro? DAWG you know shit was TIGHT at that recital.

Nov 16 11 - 2:29am

Allison Mosshart probably gets laid every concert.

Nov 16 11 - 2:46pm

allison mosshart probably gets laid every minute she can spare. uhnf.

Nov 16 11 - 2:54am

You think too much. Just pluck a guy from the audience and fuck him. The only thinking you need to do is remember to have a condom handy.

Nov 16 11 - 4:51am

female musicians can't freakin play..take some frickin guitar lessons already

Nov 16 11 - 5:19am
Re: duh

I'm guessing you don't get laid regardless of being on tour or not.

Nov 16 11 - 10:59am

I have to agree with her.... I'm a ten year touring musician, former manwhore and a closer. It is really logistically difficult to make it happen on the road, particularly on a bus tour..... let alone having any kind of standards. If you want to hang out with some half witted harpy until 4am, you CAN make it happen every night. That get's stale really quickly. Also, IMO, she is adorable.

Nov 18 11 - 11:40am

Yeah, there seem to be a lot of people here don't get that this is actually a pretty reasonable illustration of the tour. It's not easy to get laid if the only place you have to go to is a tour bus or van!

Nov 16 11 - 11:02am

Yo, I've gone home with girls from a band twice: a bassist, and a trombone player. I'm doing my past, Ellen!

Nov 16 11 - 12:13pm

i stopped reading once she said she wouldn't sleep with a groupie.

Nov 16 11 - 2:23pm

^ that.

Nov 16 11 - 3:54pm

I didn't, but should have.

Nov 16 11 - 12:15pm

Maybe I should save this piece for the next time I get into discussion about why men don't listen to female musicians more often. "Male fans? Ewwwwww!" That's a powerful inducement to want to listen to female musicians, amirite?

Nov 16 11 - 7:15pm

So male fans shouldn't listen to female musicians because they won't get to fuck them? How nice.

Nov 16 11 - 7:48pm

Ah, no - more like why would you want to listen to an artist who is contemptuous of you? I guess that can work if you're a masochist.

Nov 16 11 - 8:04pm

BTW, mxj - you might want to work on your reading comprehension. My post didn't mention sex at all.

Nov 17 11 - 1:13pm

RD, I hear you. Calling male fans "creepy" was a big mistake in my book too. Talk about genderizing the relationship between music and listenership...as a female musician, I was repulsed.

Nov 16 11 - 1:11pm

Saw Linda Ronstandt a long, long time ago. At one point she said to the audience, "Drummers get laid. I can't even get a groupie. Any groupies in the audience?" If only I'd raised my hand...

Nov 16 11 - 1:43pm

Christ...you trolls are fucking pathetic.

Nov 16 11 - 1:48pm

I agree.

Nov 16 11 - 2:29pm

Thanks, Haynes.


Nov 16 11 - 2:06pm
Tony Z

Sometimes things aren't just meant to be. Getting some action on a whirlwind bus tour seems like one of those things. Not every situation in life is conducive to getting laid. In fact, you can be unlucky and go through life in environments that aren't really helpful to finding someone. The universe works against you sometimes.

Besides, I'd feel like such a creeper if I tried to hit on (and possible have sex with) a girl in a band I listen to. And it doesn't reflect on the individual women either - she is probably a cool person and we could talk and have a great conversation, and I obviously admire their musical talents, but its a line I wont cross.

Nov 16 11 - 2:48pm

This is why "male fans? Eww!" is such a dumb reason to categorically rule out said male fans. Dudes who put women on pedestals as Tony Z seems to do here? Like other Nice Guys, they don't approach the women they're attracted to in the first place. That presumably leaves the guys who are attracted and don't have the women on pedestals. What's wrong with them?

Nov 16 11 - 2:36pm
mr. man

i slept with this really cute shy violinist once. afterward she told me she'd just lost her virginity earlier that week.

Nov 23 11 - 9:51pm

Rebound sex.

Nov 16 11 - 4:00pm

"And I don't want to reduce it to status anxiety or a power issue"

...except, of course, that that's EXACTLY what a lot of this is about.

Male rockstars get female groupies because neither party is uncomfortable with that power relationship -- in fact, both parties are actively turned by that relationship. But most women get turned off if they feel like they've got the majority of the power in a relationship. Hence why the author wants the guy to be uninterested in her and her band: then she's got the frisson of anxiety and uncertainty that turns her on, because his indifference connotes power (and represents a challenge).

So basically, what lt @ 11:13 said, though otherwise this was an amusing read. I guess "female musicians discover shortage of attractive, indifferent, high-status men" wouldn't be a catchy title, though.

Nov 16 11 - 4:00pm

"both parties are actively turned by that relationship"
Turned ON, that is.

Nov 16 11 - 5:23pm

I dunno. I'm pretty sure she could make it all work for her if it were a priority. You know, she could find someone who respects her as an "artist" yet has his/her own reason to exist.

Nov 16 11 - 6:02pm

Bet she gets plenty of action now. Well played Ellen, well played.

Nov 16 11 - 11:18pm

stop thinking and fuck

Nov 17 11 - 1:35am

Ellen, how do you feel about girls? I'll be at your DC show. ;)

Nov 17 11 - 1:50am

Female musicians on tour should try the local crew if they are in need of some physical attention...we tend not to be "star struck", plus we know all the good hiding places in the venue. ;)

Nov 23 11 - 9:50pm

So long as there are no hidden cams . . .

Nov 17 11 - 4:06am
Grad Student Psych -

PS. I am in computer software. Amateur composer/producer music.
Very few female programmers. BE THANKFUL THAT THE MUSIC INDUSTRY is
kind of loose. I may find it embaressing to flirt with others in my INDUSTRY.

Nov 17 11 - 4:16am
Grad Student Psych -

of course there are the INTROVERTS and analytical. This leads to the previous advice

1.)stop thinking and fuck
2.)fuck more and thus 'stop thinking'
3.)do something OTHER THAN THINKING (usually drinking to DRUNK state) and then
4.)learn THE CHASE. very simple. IN today's moral times, which is 'decadent', let
his get almost to FIRST BASE.
Here is your back stage pass A MONTH FROM NOW. You will need to take your
vacation days to fly out to see me. Make sure it is a nice hotel and NOT seedy.
When four guys show up then the sparks will fly.
Guys tend to be competitive.

Please no more tacky motels with rent by the hour rooms.

Nov 17 11 - 5:27am

I don't think you understood the point of this article at all. This was not a Please Advise column.

Nov 17 11 - 5:35am

I don't think you understood the point of the Arabian Nights, either. Her problem wasn't the seduction of the king, it was keeping her head fastened to her shoulders.

Nov 25 11 - 12:04pm
Mumpus Rants

"Grad Student Psych" - Look how CRAZY I am, I can write in capitals to prove how WACKY I am too!!!!! ............. Stop smoking crack.

Dec 06 11 - 12:54pm

I KNOW, the completely RANDOM AND DISCONNECTED strings of thought PUNCTUATED with arbitrary ALL CAPS makes me think this guy is more of a PSYCHO than a PSYCH STUDENTS.

Nov 17 11 - 6:05am
Jax is right.

Jax hit the nail on the head. You can stop reading now if you want to.

I'm a guy and was in a touring band signed to a major label in the early 90s. Touring is absolutely fantastic but not nearly as glamorous or sexy as everyone imagines it to be.

I, personally, love it when a girl loved my band or was entranced by me being a musician. Let me tell you, it didn't happen a lot but when it did I felt as much of a princes in a Disney tale as they did.. Getting a backstage BJ minutes we opened for Motorhead was wish fullfilment raging hormonal/living the dream come true.
It certainly not NOT about the chase for me, which I think is a pursuit of the immature. If a woman I'm attracted to also felt attracted to me, then all is well in good in the world of Josh All of that being true, unless you're in a big band, you mostly go back to the motel/hotel alone. Once in a while you meet someone who is attracted to you, whom you're also attracted. I also like women and don't want to be an asshole which means you go back to the motel/hotel alone. But really Jax said it best.

I think Ellen is still young and in about 20 years will be thinking, WTF! I should have taken up a couple of groupies back in the day. but I have to say I've fallin in love with her diane keatingish nerotic hip musican thing. Like I would love to lay in be with her all day watching black and white movies while deep wet soul kissing all day long bewteen steller thai food.

Find Me Elle, I will give you beautifully realized sexualy self expression with love, geneuine ttenderness and lusty rubbing, grinding and thrustub and deep fucking kissing and a lot of laughing.. Bass Player GRETA (mercery recrds 93)

Nov 17 11 - 10:43am
Margaret the Hamster

would the 'a lof of laughing' be the result of the 'lusty rubbing, grinding and thrustub'?

Nov 17 11 - 12:13pm
Jax is right.

Obviously you've never thrustubed :-)

Nov 17 11 - 12:17pm
Jax is right.

Jesus Christ, the last paragraph is when the Ambien started kicking in - I take no personal responsibility for it!

Nov 17 11 - 1:39pm

If you don't want casual sex, then don't.
If you do want it, be realistic. You don't want a guy who likes the music you make?
Just start considering your playing part of the chase and maybe you will get into it more.
And yes, if you only want to talk with guys who are not rushing to talk to you, you are going
to forever limit your options for any kind of relationship.

Nov 17 11 - 2:25pm

I was torn reading this and the comments. I have sympathy for her but do have to agree she's excluding a lot of people and has awfully high standards for a one night stand. Unfortunately I think that's the case for a lot of women in general. I also think she has this very rigid idea of what a fan is. If someone likes you for your music, isn't that meaningful? To me it's a major factor in attraction to have appreciation for what one does with their life.

Nov 17 11 - 2:45pm

I apparently missed what Neko Case tweeted (which is odd, I'm sure I'm following her on Twitter). I'm not such an obsessive fan (of anyone) that I hang on every word they tweet, though, so.

I suppose the title of the article is slightly misleading, but it's still an interesting look into the thoughts and feelings of a young female musician and the logistics of sex on the road. I'm not really sure why she's taking so much flak for only explaining why she doesn't get laid much on tour.

Nov 17 11 - 2:57pm

It'd be different if the frame around it were more personal. When you title your article "Female Musicians Never Get Laid", you open the door to lots of things.

Still, I think the real issue here is that though the author seems charming and self-aware, she doesn't really 100% cop to her own responsibility for the situation. If you basically say "I can't get laid, and BTW I'm repulsed by men who seem sincerely attracted to me", then people are going to point out the bullshit, you know?

Again, it's no different from a guy who says "I can't get laid, and BTW I reject women who don't look like supermodels". You can't broadcast your issues and then expect people not to say "Well, maybe the problem is actually you."

Dec 10 11 - 11:23pm
The Dro

AAC, I agree with you 100%.

Nov 17 11 - 2:56pm

"maybe it's because some men worry they will come across as slightly creepy. (And in truth, some male fans actually are slightly creepy.)"

And now, any guy who has enough self-awareness to wonder if they come across as charming or creepy is going to fall on the "creepy" side and not talk to strangers.

As one of those guys... er... thank you?

Nov 17 11 - 4:31pm

being a married female musician . . . . I never have this problem. That may be an extreme step for some!

Nov 17 11 - 6:12pm

I liked this article...it was different and well written:)

Nov 17 11 - 6:32pm

Dudes are not trying to sleep with you because you are in a band. They are trying to sleep with you because they think you are hot, groupies or otherwise.". You are way over thinking this when it comes to guys. And you can have that "Before Sunrise" connection with someone that likes your music. You already have something to talk about and then you can talk about other things.
That balance of power thing is getting in your way... which is a shame, because you want the guy to approach you, but how can he when the backstage manager will not allow it without permission. Trust me, your witty quips will impressive the dude if he is attracted to you.

Nov 17 11 - 10:50pm

On a side note there are alot of bands from decades ago that have to do shows/record because of all the illegitmate kids they created see:alimony,support etc....its the funnest thing cracking on these guys who thought they had the world by the balls back then but now these ( idiots) have a half a dozen women draining them dry on a monetary level--priceless! As a musician i am SO glad i avoided that whole baby mama drama/groupie scene.....btw alot of those dudes have abinets full of valtrex now.

Nov 18 11 - 9:24am

The first explanation explains it entirely. Women are squicked out by the power imbalance between star/groupie. Men get off on it. So the men get laid and the women don't.

Nov 18 11 - 8:24pm

I'd fuck Ellen Campesinos.

Nov 18 11 - 11:33pm

yes i would love to fuck them all silly

Nov 18 11 - 11:41pm

I laughed my head off reading this. Sometimes a story about sex isn't really about the sex.

Nov 19 11 - 2:31am

A wonderful piece providing an insight of the strange female psyche.

Nov 20 11 - 10:18pm

Honestly, I really wish I'd read this a while ago. The former drummer of Outrageous Cherry is one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen, but I just couldn't bring myself to talk to her or god forbid proposition her. It crossed my mind but I thought surely she has scores of suitors everywhere she goes, and maybe she does, but it wa prob. worth a shot.

Nov 21 11 - 6:43am
mike ball

Whoever said women aren't weird? Is that why we're so fond of them?--------No...............

Nov 22 11 - 8:12am

Utter rubbish. Every woman knows that all men want to have sex all the time, if a man were her for a day she'd be getting laid within 5 minutes.

Nov 23 11 - 9:42pm

Extrapolate abit and learn why hookers are like rockstars all the time . . .

Nov 22 11 - 3:33pm

I was at the show in DC a couple nights ago. I thought you were pretty cute.

Nov 24 11 - 11:04pm

Cry more.

Nov 25 11 - 3:22am

This comment may be deleted for dissenting but here goes anyway.

Female musicians don't get laid because what do guys care about? Looks. Yes, we are that shallow. We enjoy ourselves, why can't you?

This article should be retitled 'Female Musicians Never Get Laid with the Guys they want.'

Unless you're already hot, being in a band won't make you anymore attractive to the guys you find attractive. You think it would make you more attractive to other guys because you yourself find musicians attractive. As do many other good looking girls. Thats why being in female musician will only help you attract more creepy fans.

Despite what you have been lead to believe, not every girl with a guitar is hot. Least of all one who plays bass.

Dec 10 11 - 11:21pm
The Dro

I agree to a certain extent. I've seen some good looking chicks in touring bands but it's a lot less attractive when they're drunk and sweaty and haven't been able to shave for a week since they've been on the road. Also, a lot of them look great on stage, then you see them up close and realize they're not as hot as you thought they were.

Nov 27 11 - 7:36pm

What a refreshing piece of writing, a rather humorous and honest take on life in a band. Good work

Dec 10 11 - 11:17pm
The Dro

I'm in a band and I've toured all over the country. I read this article and the first thing that came to mind was that she's the sole reason for not getting laid. As many of you have already commented, she's cock-blocking herself. The reason guys in bands get laid a lot more than woman band members is because as a guy, we don't think about all that shit. All it takes is one semi-good-looking chick to come up to you and look at you in a way you feel may be flirty and your door is automatically open to them. You don't end up giving a shit about all these extra things she mentioned, because most guys have the thought in their head that this fan's mouth around their cock for the night would be good enough. So stop over thinking things as a woman, and just have some guy flick your bean, then move on to the next town as any other non-self-respecting band member on the road would gladly take advantage of.

Apr 04 12 - 10:53am

i am a chick bassist too. i dont have trouble getting offers to get laid by other musicians, other bassists and reg people( groupies?). my boy friend is also a musician primary instrument is bass. my oroblem is i dont get laid by him! no he is not running around or gay. its just being on road thing i guess.

Sep 17 12 - 11:20am

I think this is reflective of what happens when the power dynamic is switched. Many, many straight non-musician females also have the issue of finding someone attractive who has equivalent power/success or whatever. Also - having a guitar ups the intrigue factor to most straight dudes in my opinion/experience and does add a few points b/c it's still exotic in these here parts. Yes, there are some really creepy audience dudes but there are also really hot ones, depends on the music you make - LCs are kind of twee pop so the dudes may not be, erm, the pin you to the headboard and ravage you all night types. Playing rock / garage shows, you see a lot of 70s rock star looking guys, if that's your thing...(< Yes that generalization is really potentially awful, sorry.) No, she doesn't have narcissistic personality disorder at all, tho some of the commentators above might.