Experiment:
To determine the efficacy and adaptability of pop-culture hook-up guides. Can a woman use the rules of "the game" on other women? And how will dudes respond to pick-up techniques that were designed to hustle ladies into bed?

Hypothesis:
Success, according to these manuals, is one of three results, known as "closes": the number-close, the kiss-close, and the f-close. Get a number, get smooched, get laid. Frankly, I will be stoked if I close the experiment without a panic attack; anything else is a bonus.

Your scientist would like to disclose a bias before we begin: prior to engaging in this experiment, I strongly believed that mainstream advice guides were based on little more than misogyny and an eager exploitation of the insecure. I recoiled from materials that treated men and women as irreconcilably alien from one another, and which suggested that little more than snake oil and manipulation is required to bed them.

However, I was also hot off the heels of a number of breakups — one with a person, another with cigarettes — and had no real notion of how to function socially without the latter. I was hard up for a release; this seemed as good an avenue as any.

Materials:
Several self-help guides, and one 450-page, leather-bound, gilded, thirty-nine-dollar book detailing the inner world of pickup artists (that's "PUAs" to the uninitiated; this is a subculture rife with acronyms)
Several reruns of VH1's The Pickup Artist
An alter-ego ("avatar")
A wing woman
A number of pre-planned pick-up lines ("openers")
Accoutrements for "peacocking" (dressing all snazzy to attract mates)
A fully abandoned sense of shame, propriety and personal space

Methods:
Before attempting to pick up anybody, I read the authoritative materials

Frankly, I will be stoked if I close the experiment without a panic attack; anything else is a bonus.

on the purported "art" of picking up women. Distilled, the ideas are fairly simple — generic, even — and for the more socially uncomfortable could be helpful. They advise being confident (or at least faking it), taking some care in your appearance, smiling, physically approaching people in a way that isn't threatening or invasive, and not feeling completely destroyed by rejection — all fairly sound advice for meeting new people.

More problematic is the culture surrounding these basics, as described in detail in Neil Strauss's The Game. It's a culture that describes women as "targets," that calls a mission to go meet women "sarging" (named after a certain veteran PUA's cat, Sarge. Pussy! Clever!), that refers to a woman's desire not to be approached by strangers as her "bitch shield," that encourages making women feel bad about themselves as they are being hit on, so as to make oneself seem larger and more important (a tactic called the "neg"). It speaks glowingly of men who (allegedly — there is a lot of ego here) have manipulated their partners into plastic surgery and sex work, encourages "going caveman," and provides this gem of an acronym:

LMR — noun [last-minute resistance]: an occurrence, often after kissing, in which a woman who desires a man prevents him, through words or actions, from progressing towards a more intimate sexual contact, such as removing her bra, putting his hand down her pants, or penetration.

So consent is just another obstacle to be humped away into pick-up artist mastery. Rapetacular.

Since much of this advice involves reinventing one's current (presumably flawed) self into a lady-killing stud, I had to develop a suave, clubbin' persona. If Mystery can seriously call himself Mystery, if a dude named Neil can reinvent himself as Style, then for a limited time only I will call myself Cash. I chose it along the lines of Wu-Tang's "cash rules everything around me," but as it happens the name provided a segue into an incredibly cheesy line, courtesy of an acquaintance actually named Cash: "Before I was born, my parents used to say that they had love and they had a home, but what they didn't have was cash."

I worked up some other "openers" — including "what are your thoughts on the banjo?" — then practiced my lines in front of a mirror. It was going to be a very long night.

Commentarium (80 Comments)

Sep 21 09 - 1:59pm
BM

Isn't this kind of a pointless experiment? Young, attractive women do not need pick-up strategies. "Hi, my name's X, wanna fuck?" should work better than 50% of the time for her.

Dec 12 11 - 5:21am
LB

That's a pretty big misconception. Like, seriously. Read up and return back with some better info.

Jan 20 12 - 4:46pm
EB

Sadly, I recently found out its not. After changing my views recently and looking around for some friends with benefits, I had three offers of people I talked to about it within a week. And one from someone I really just wish hadn't said anything.

Sep 21 09 - 2:13pm
brav

@BM. I think you missed the point of this entirely. This was FASCINATING. The whole pick-up artist culture, at least as i've seen it on tv, is insane. and mysognist. She was hilarious and brave to try and make it work for women; and very honest in how it made her feel. Well done for science!

Sep 21 09 - 3:43pm
NDO

"Negging" doesn't work for women.

Dec 11 11 - 4:04pm
Charlotte

I know from sad, personal friend experience that "negging" does work on some women: women who were abused or dominated in some way as girls, usually by a "trusted" adult male.

Dec 11 11 - 4:05pm
Charlotte

These creeps are nothing short of predators taking advantage of those who've already been most traumatized.

Sep 21 09 - 3:47pm
MK

What a stupid experiment. All of the insights about picking up women from The Game were gleaned by men working on picking up women. Of course it feels weird and doesn't work when a woman uses it. Would be a lot weirder if it did work.

Dec 11 11 - 4:07pm
Charlotte

Should theoretically have still worked on the girls she was hitting on. Maybe the experiment would be more to your liking if she were more butch and exclusively hitting on femme women?

Jun 25 12 - 3:42pm
Bernd

Naah, prey doesn't have a script for what to do when other prey hunts it. Prey has a script for when predator hunts it, but when anything outside that happens, things go weird.

Sep 21 09 - 4:06pm
lol

I'm using "what are your thoughts on the banjo" tonight...maybe not so much the "man hands" bit.

Sep 21 09 - 6:06pm
CD

Negging doesn't work for ANYBODY who is inept at gauging boundaries and reading people.

Sep 21 09 - 6:36pm
am

@MK why shouldn't it work for women?

Sep 21 09 - 7:09pm
MK

@am: B/c The Game is designed to work on responses *to males* that are "hard-wired" into women. If women want a game-plan for picking up other women (or men, for that matter), some woman or group of women should do the actual work (hypothesis - experiment - confirm hypothesis- practice) the PUA weirdos did to learn how men should pick up women. Make sense?

Dec 11 11 - 4:10pm
Charlotte

Yes, they learned from experience to exploit women with severe insecurities. Brilliant.

Dec 12 11 - 2:45pm
Nobody

Women with severe insecurities are naturally most vulnerable and shouldn't be in bars, they should be in therapy. Men with severe insecurities are just as obviously the ones picking them up- and should also seek professional help. After years of observing both roles and a variety of permutations, I've come to see it as a couple of emotional cripples trying to prop each other up. As a side effect, I've been so repulsed that I no longer go to bars except for invited social events. It's just sad, you know? If anyone has a more positive way of seeing these transactions, I'd love to hear it.

Doesn't one of those how to play "the game," books start with the anti-hero having a nervous breakdown in a mental facility?

Sep 21 09 - 10:44pm
rle

i think EVERYONE is missing the point of this, which is that it is ridiculous and funny. really. or maybe that isn't the point?

author, I'D fuck you. and by fuck you, i mean punch you in the nose.

Sep 21 09 - 10:54pm
crab

ahahahahahah i can't believe all the people stanning for puas. its ridiculous. they've got aspie level unawareness of sarcasm.

and for real talk about not getting what's going on. "of course ur deconstruction of gender roles didn't work MEN ARE FROM MARS WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS"

Sep 22 09 - 1:08am
meg

this was a funny and insightful article though not really telling anyone whose dated anything new. Women play a different game. I'd love to see an article about a really self confident woman taking these rules and making them work.hard.

Sep 22 09 - 2:55am
JBA

Women already have game. Its called makeup and Cosmo.

Sep 22 09 - 3:02am
SK

I laughed. I cried. I wanted to dedicate my next child to you.

Sep 22 09 - 10:13am
mg

@MK: women are "hard-wired" to respond to pseudonyms and abuse? is that why "Mystery" and "Style" have an entire acronym describing a lady's "last minute" desire NOT to get banged by dudes wearing fuzzy orange top hats? I'm choking on my own sarcasm quotes.

Sep 22 09 - 10:54am
mc

Great article. Ms. MacRae I think drives right into the heart of what is wrong with these "pick-up" methods. I read that material and the only truly good advide from that B.S. is to "be interesting." Yet they miss the point completely. A man should "be interesting" by developing and interesting life. How about getting an education, creating art, a business, or helping others.
Hilarious article. I actually had the same reation. Having that game material even in my head made going out and meeting the opposite sex a strange experience when at one time, pre game infection it was just fun.

Sep 23 09 - 12:49am
vv

Well to be frank, the even if u do not like the book, the whole deal seems to working for men who have used these materials, so WHAT THE HEELL ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE HERE. Every thing turned out great for the both the guy who slept with the girl and the girl who met the guy she wanted to sleep with.

Sep 22 09 - 5:11pm
KRL

This is HILARIOUS. As a woman who finds these tactics joke-worthy and obvious, I've always wanted to do this for laughs, but suspected I'd find about the same results. Great job.

Also, I am ultra-jealous of your belt.

Sep 22 09 - 5:23pm
BS

It turns out that if you are a woman and you want another woman the game is a bit different. There is typically no "bitch shield" to overcome and flattery/wit will get you everywhere. As for the effectiveness of the material, it is unparalleled for men. We are all little machines (generally)that follow a certain sequence of button pushing to get the desired product. That's what the material teaches. And your hang up over the terms (i.e. LMR) is silly, this was written for men by men that systematically approached the problem like any good researcher would. The acronyms were common problems that needed to be overcome, so they addressed it and found solutions. At any point in the pick-up process the woman has the option to leave. It is never suggested that she be forced to do anything. Women have inherent responses to specific behavior (as do men) and this material simply exploits that.

Mar 21 11 - 4:47pm
RTRA

When you write "men," speak for yourself. Most of us aren't crypto-rapists that need to demean and disempower women. The manual doesn't teach you to be a goon, *you* do. So take some personal responsibility for your choice to actively learn and perpetuate bad behavior that is coercive to women.

Jun 25 12 - 3:51pm
Bernd

What, exactly, do you find coercive in an interaction that results in boy and girl rubbing naughty bits together and, by all accounts, enjoying it?

Sep 22 09 - 5:50pm
JMM

I understand Ms. MacRae's intent was to entertain rather than inform, but insinuating that Neil Strauss's book is the beginning and end of Pick-Up is like saying Metallica is the beginning and end of metal. Just not accurate at all.

Sep 22 09 - 7:25pm
BM

"ahahahahahah i can't believe all the people stanning for puas."

Uh, what? Are those supposed to be words?

Sep 22 09 - 7:42pm
stel

This is the bravest, best thing I've read in quite awhile. I WANT ME SOME CASH.

Sep 22 09 - 7:59pm
TTK

You are adorable. I would be your wingwoman any time.

Sep 22 09 - 8:01pm
PUA

Cute, but ultimately dishonest. You never set out with intention to close, or you would have closed ANY of the guys you talked to. I think you are more interested in being a jerk and saying "Look, I swear I'm not the jerk, it's these techniques". I teach these techniques to men. They transform and become the men you REALLY want to date. For the record the intent isn't to hustle girls into bed. The intent is to have men break through their fears around women and failure. LMR is about helping a girl say yes if she wants, but ultimately doesn't want to feel like she's a slut / she did something wrong. No technique in the world will trick a girl into sleeping with a guy she ultimately doesn't want to. You must think women are stupid. Women are brilliant. Only articles like this are stupid.

Sep 22 09 - 10:59pm
haha

@ PUA - UH-OH, are you trying to neg her? I'm sure she's crushed.

Sep 23 09 - 12:21pm
HTG

@PAU - I'm sorry, you think the author of this piece - who is, clearly, a well-informed and articulate person, not to mention a woman herself - thinks women are stupid? Because she thinks that insulting women isn't the best way to get one of them into bed? Maybe she didn't want to "close" (also, ew, it's not a advertising account) because she thought it would be better to find romantic relationships with honesty and some sort of mutual attraction (so difficult, I know!).

Sep 23 09 - 4:54am
JV

@PUA - It seems to me that her point was that she stopped *wanting* to be able to close, since this all made her feel so disgusting. But as for what "LMR is about," I think that has more to do with the intent of the user. For some, it's to break through shyness, perhaps. For others, it's about a cheap lay.

Also - I love the author's hat in this pic.

Sep 23 09 - 11:48am
TP

This was awesome! I would totally do you!
I can't believe people could read this and then post their bitchings about how the insights weren't novel enough - its supposed to be quirky and funny you douchebags.
Ps: I love your writing style. Please write more!!!

Sep 23 09 - 2:46pm
O_O

That commentary that girls don't need a technique... Guys wouldn't need one either, but they're looking for a minimum level of attractiveness in their mate.
I'm not saying that there should be a PUA set of rules, but the whole point would be getting ridiculously hot guys that would ordinarily be out of your league.

Sep 23 09 - 5:04pm
LLM

Yeah, I fucking love you. And not to sound like your mom, but I'm so damn proud of you! MUAH!

Sep 23 09 - 5:06pm
LLM

Me again, forgot to say I adore the gold pants and where in the world did you find a chatch belt? (it's Lyndsay btw).

Sep 24 09 - 3:43am
DJ

Not simply to make an off-topic comment, but the I Did It for Science features are probably my favorite part of this site. When I discovered this place, and those, I immediately read them all. So good. This one ranks up around the top for that amazing belt buckle.

I know this isn't a request line, but I just found out about this stuff http://www.bodyslime.com/ It looks pretty grody to me, but I think it's the perfect subject for one of the I Did It for Science people to try out, and report back to us loyal readers.

Either way, love the site, love the work, never stop being awesome all of you!

Sep 24 09 - 11:35am
HC

I'm so glad someone tried this. I really did wonder what would happen if a woman tried it.

O_O: Yes! I'm tired of hearing how women could get laid anytime they want with no problem.... uhm, sure, if they had no standards whatsoever, they could. Exactly.

Oct 06 09 - 6:26pm
Mona

You're awesome. *g*

Oct 07 09 - 1:24am
dc

i do hope i get to use "forthwith" as a segue into banging sometime.

also pua defenders: you're wrong. just saying.

Oct 07 09 - 8:46am
EA

@PUA. I was willing to give credence to the vast majority of your argument. I can accept that breaking down the process of courtship into a quantifiable methodology is helpful for individuals without the instincts for dating, and agree that the author of this article employed sloppy methodology and was not sufficiently committed to exploring this topic from anything approaching an objective point of view.

However, I must strongly disagree with your statement that: 'No technique in the world will trick a girl into sleeping with a guy she ultimately doesn't want to.'
While 'trick' may not necessarily be the most accurate term, individuals of both genders can most certainly be pressured, manipulated, and/or emotionally coerced into relinquishing more of their privacy than they are comfortable with.

Your intentions in teaching these courtship techniques are admirable, but I think you would be remiss in not recognizing that the culture of the pick-up artist is ALSO attractive to those who are more comfortable thinking about women as acquisitions and ornaments.

Oct 28 09 - 7:39am
sg

I agree with O_O - the point is to "over-perform" - learn to do better than you have done in the past, learning what is essesntially social psychology. Not all tools in the toolbox are always going to work for your personality. People "neg" all the time, it's fun, it's a pillar of a lot of comedy - all PUAs have done is label it. If you do negging wrong, it's not funny - being unfunny is a turn-off. That's not news. A lot of the the social/evolotionary psych can also be applied to the workplace and friends. Be confident, be funny, don't be over-eager, don't be needy. The bottom line is that the basic PUA stuff works, and by successfully meeting strangers you get more out of life - be it friend, a wife, husband, more sex or whatever - it works. Yes it can be misused, but sorry, dating is a rough game sometimes.

Nov 08 09 - 4:42pm
zw

"it was time to rock my normal, standoffish behavior and unwind." That's what girl game is all about. Standoffish behavior.

Nov 14 09 - 2:26pm
hyue

"Experiment:
To determine the efficacy and adaptability of pop-culture hook-up guides."
obviously that wasnt the purpose of so called "experiment"; the purpose was to discredit and show the ridiculeness of pua's concepts ; I suppose all the major thesis of the article were a-priori, and of course the major thesis is : pua technics (neg, lying, pretending to be someone else) are disgusting and misogynic;

Dec 03 09 - 8:50pm
Ms

Very fun article. Though, to be valid, you'd want to change cultures to where men dictate courtship to equate the contexts for male pua's here. Try SE Asia player... You'll get nill

Jan 08 10 - 6:44am
EF

"Rapetacular." I laughed so hard that I may just have peed a little!

Jan 18 10 - 9:59pm
SS

apologies, the website erased my formatting - that was actually a well thought out comment, despite the verbal seizure it appears to be.

Feb 14 10 - 11:36am
BAM

I am very impressed with your experiment! I have become aware of this whole pick up artist and alpha male rules crap! I am going to buy the Game learn it, learn to spot it and weed those guys out. They are not the ones I want and don't want anything but sex!

Mar 15 10 - 1:13pm
oi

ioh

May 21 10 - 11:36am
Fred

I don't think this article discredits the PUA guides. If you truly read the guide, you must have missed the part that said "Men and women have different attraction switches... men it's 80% physical and 20% emotional and women is 80% emotional and 20% physical." You wore yourself down because as the first commenter said, women don't need a game plan to pick up men.

You can call it misogynist, or whatever you choose. The fact is women successfully respond to it, depending on who's trying it out (and how their "game" is.) So is the fault of men for "exploiting" women, or is it the fault of women for not adapting and making themselves stronger? I think the answer lies somewhere in between.

And it's not true that all PUA's want sex. I read these books to make more friends and be a socially stronger man. Not all men are just trying to get laid. Some people are nice guys that suck at approaching women.

I'd suggest that you come up with a counter pick up routine where a guy can convey his personality, and a woman find that attractive. Really, what way is there to talk to a woman? Please enlighten me.

Dec 11 11 - 4:20pm
ZeeSpect

"So is the fault of men for "exploiting" women, or is it the fault of women for not adapting and making themselves stronger? I think the answer lies somewhere in between. "

Is it the fault of men for [doing something] or the fault of women for not [stopping men from doing something]?

I hope you see the problem with that...

Dec 11 11 - 11:54pm
BI

Another question for Fred, whom I can for some reason not reply to:

"The fact is women successfully respond to it, depending on who's trying it out (and how their "game" is.)"

I fail to see how this is a ringing endorsement of the PUA strategy. Couldn't this be said of practically any tactic? "Depending on who it is" - well, of course, if the guy who does well actually is more attractive, he's going to have a better success rate anyway. And how good their "game" is just really strikes me as pretty non-specific.

For instance, a hot enough guy could walk up to a girl, say "Hi, my name is (insert actual name here), would you like to dance?" and get accepted right away, even if he was completely boring and ordinary clothes if he said it sincerely enough. You can't tout a few cases as proof the whole system works, these men might simply have gotten numbers/dates/laid anyway.

Or more shocking, an actual relationship, because men can want those too.

Jul 04 10 - 1:52pm
AB

I think the majority of FEMALES are missing something blaringly obvious. The author has been doing this for a couple of months and can't handle it. Try a NICE GUY like me / 50% of dudes, who have to go through this shit just to meet a girl and have been doing this for YEARS. I'm not saying going through the PUA society because I doubt 50% of guys do it, but I'm saying going up to girls and getting rejected 100 times only to get a few phone numbers / dates that pan out 1 in a 10 times. Try that for YEARS and having no other alternatives...To put it into context, imagine a college graduate with no work experience and moderate GPA trying to get a job in THIS economy. I don't know which is harder getting a job in this economy or getting a girl...Either way, its a long freaking process...Someone wrote something about being more interesting by "doing art, starting a business"...Excuse me, but that just illustrates what a Man has to do to meet a woman...We have to START A BUSINESS!? Are you freaking kidding me? Learn to DRAW or PAINT? Ludicrous. Meanwhile as a woman you can sit on your ass, call your girlfriend and she will help you meet a dude in a day...For the dudes who have tons of girl friends, (friends being key word), you guys are on some insecure shit as well...

Dec 12 11 - 12:00am
BI

Oh, I hate the use of the term "NICE GUY," because the guys who label themselves "Nice Guys" are only Nice Guys TM. That is to say, they bitch and moan about how nice they are and why can't they find someone when they're just sooo nice.

Really? Niceness is assumed, it's not a deal-closer! You'd better have something more to offer than just being 'nice.' Especially the passive-aggressive kind of nice used by Nice Guys TM. Sure, they do things for you, but they make sure you remember it for weeks and years and months. Truly nice and unselfish people do things for their friends and other human beings in general without keeping a running tally. One of my friends came over and took care of my dog and cleaned the entire house when I was in the hospital, and doesn't even remember it when I mention it now, two years later. That's true niceness, the kind that could be bragged about, but it isn't because the person doing it doesn't care or remember.

Jul 26 10 - 8:32am
Sally

Beaches and shores.

Aug 09 10 - 3:16pm
C

WhatEVER! like u really need skills to be a 'pick-up artist'!
most men are SO EASY, having a heartbeat usually all you need...LOL!

Oct 01 10 - 9:21pm
crackpatch

Yes, sure, I like it, Interesting and educational. Please continue to write more interesting post in your website.

Oct 15 10 - 8:20am
Cam

lol at all the comments that claim the PUA stuff to be legit and that PUAs are only helping the woman realize what she wants. This article quite clearly shows how those women repping a positive IQ feel about you "lying weirdos"
The reason u guys need these guides on how to talk with women is that u quite clearly have an agenda in ur conversations and ur trying to force things towards an outcome that ur prospective procreation partner may not be interested in. If u move outside the club scene and just talk with women for the sake of talking to them, letting things go where they'll go then u might realize all women aren't bitchy, self-obsessed objects there to be conquered.
One of the greatest articles I've read in a very long time. Lines like "rapetastic" and "what are your thoughts on the banjo?" should b worshipped.
Now Im going to go catch up with my gf...to the PUAs out there gf refers to someone who you sleep with more than once. Yes! it is possible.

Oct 20 10 - 11:24am
gustaff

Hi, i used to be a "nerd" and with some effort and hard will i have been improving. As far as i have seen, the "Key" is to choose defects and be able to show them as a fact, as a prove of sef confidence "I am human and i have XX and YYY cons..." and then you talk abouth your virtues. But, after you have shown your darkest areas, the other will hear your chatting from Human-to-human.....instead from PerfectGod-to-human ;)
I choose for example.... i am honest....excesive sometimes :O
and stubborn. In the same way i try to have Possitive Attitude and enjoy simple things.
(i am a native spanish speaker, sorry for bad english =P )

Oct 21 10 - 10:31pm
doomgoblin

AB sounds pretty bitter. I bet he has B.O. or something else glaringly obvious that's preventing him from getting laid. Or maybe his standards are just too high. I bet it's a combination of the two.

I dug this article. Scientific? No. Funny? Yes.

Oct 24 10 - 2:46pm
Angel A

Though it was a very entertaining and engaging article, it's obviously far from "scientific." It may not be possible to indisputably measure the success of PUA techniqe, ever. But, I'm certain a group (perhaps as a university based project?) could come close with a much more controlled experiment.

It should not only include the perspective of a person engaging in PUA activies, but also a follow-up reaction from people who were their "targets" to see if they indeed had negative feelings as surmised in this article or actually felt that the techniques lead to their natural response of wanting to act as they did.

Hope that didn't too existential ya'll. :-) Just saying, it's one person's very biased article but it brings a great question to light.

Oct 24 10 - 2:47pm
Angel A

Though it was a very entertaining and engaging article, it's obviously far from "scientific." It may not be possible to indisputably measure the success of PUA techniqe, ever. But, I'm certain a group (perhaps as a university based project?) could come close with a much more controlled experiment.
.
It should not only include the perspective of a person engaging in PUA activies, but also a follow-up reaction from people who were their "targets" to see if they indeed had negative feelings as surmised in this article or actually felt that the techniques lead to their natural response of wanting to act as they did.
.
Hope that didn't too existential ya'll. :-) Just saying, it's one person's very biased article but it brings a great question to light.

Nov 28 10 - 10:27pm
my cock hurts

my cock hurts

Feb 17 11 - 11:42pm
Patch Kendra

Are you know mr Donovan?

Apr 13 11 - 12:36pm
DC

I think we have here a failure of the concept to transfer successfully between the sexes. The whole point of the idea of negging is that it is (rightly or wrongly, wrongly one hopes) to be assumed that any man would be willing to sleep with an attractive woman but not necessarily the reverse. Therefore by sending cues to an attractive woman that you /aren't/ interested, but instead would like her to back off (grabby much?) you confuse the (putative) sub-conscious mechanisms which measure comparative social status, making whatever part of her is looking for men it is acceptable for her to have a relationship with by virtue of their social standing, think that you must be higher status than it/she assumed and as a result she becomes more attracted to her than otherwise. Whereas with men, any decent man is actively looking for cues that you aren't interested in order to avoid pushing the matter for fear of (a) wasting their time (b) humiliating themselves or (c) inviting accusations of creeper behaviour so if you 'neg' them they'll respond to it like common sense says they should; a sign you aren't interested and that they should get lost.

I accept the PUA stuff is (a) morally reprehensible and (b) (speaking as a postgrad in cognitive neuroscience) psychologically dubious but just as a passing thought - according to their logic of how it works 'negging' should only ever work on a girl who, either consciously or subconsciously, assumes you must automatically want to have sex with her. Which makes it harder for me to feel bad about the minority of girls that it does work on.

Jun 12 11 - 1:29pm
SH

My impression of "negging" was that it has to do with the self-confidence of the "target" woman. If a woman feels like a man thinks less of her, she may then want a sign of approval, and some expression that she is liked by him. Therefore "negging" gives men the opportunity to create vulnerability in the woman they're talking to, and a way to exploit that vulnerability. I think it's a technique to advance the getting-a-woman-into-bed thing, not something to derail it. Whatever defense anyone can offer for PUA techniques, insulting someone in order to take advantage of the resulting self-esteem drop is reprehensible and cruel. It seems to me that people only need to use these techniques, and insult and exploit and falsify in an interaction, when acting like themselves isn't good enough-- or when they think they aren't good enough (like AB. Who, I'm sorry, doesn't sound like a "nice guy" to me.) The only reason to need a complicated set of rules and a fake personality simply to be able to approach a woman is that your normal approach and personality don't work. It might be somewhat more sensible to figure out why and fix that, rather than engage in the very destructive methods of "The Game."

Jun 25 12 - 4:28pm
Bernd

Okay, so you think that negging is reprehensible and cruel. How do you feel about somebody thinking that somebody else necessarily and automatically wants sex with them? I think I get where you're coming from though; it's just that my impression of negging is that it's a defensive move, not primarily an offensive move. It's a reaction to the (covert) aggression of the neggee that assumes they are necessarily and automatically too good for the negger.

Also, I don't buy this synthetic dichotomy between "acting like themselves" and a "set of rules and a fake personality".

Maybe, to some, fixing why "your normal approach and personality don't work" involves changing one's normal approach and personality. Doing so will necessarily incur a period of acting out a "fake" personality. I don't think it's any more "fake" than learning not to fart at the dinner table, though.

Jun 15 11 - 10:54pm
Hyperion

PUA is nothing more than the hacking of social interaction, especially the ritualistic mating dances we all do and are simply unaware of. As Dr. Robert Cialdini would put it, the PUA is looking to exploit the click-whir responses that are built into the human brain. To say it is immoral is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. We all attempt to persuade the moment we begin to communicate with one another. Not trying to excel at persuasion is doing the male's genes a disservice, and those males that don't will not pass on their genes. We are all a product of males trying to game the system for female attention. That is how evolution works and the reason for our larger brains, development of language, creation of music, etc.

Dec 12 11 - 4:16am
JJ

It's gross and manipulative. No, not all men are gross and manipulative, although I know PUAs like to repeat this to themselves over and over like a mantra. Decent guys with a bit of confidence don't need to play lame mind games to get attention from women. (Both casual sex and happy relationships have existed long before "the game" and will continue to exist long after it is gone.) So it's no surprise that the guys who flock to PUAs are bottom-feeders and low-confidence guys who become bottom-feeders after gobbling up the PUA rhetoric. I would feel bad for them if they weren't so obnoxious.

Dec 12 11 - 12:33pm
Miss K

I understand that some people think these rules are just breaking down the normal social "dance" of mating, but as I understand the "rules"include lying and manipulation. That is pretty much what con artists do to cheat people. So hey, I guess that's fine too and people who don't want to be conned wouldn't be conned if they didn't want to be so no harm done!

Dec 12 11 - 11:19pm
Teresa

As a girl who has picked up guys on a regular basis when I was playing the field. You don't need any rules. Just smile, be friendly and buy a few rounds of shots. The rest is easy. I've found when ever you want to meet new people humor and being friendly helps. No guys being a good looking chic is not the only thing you need for guys to talk to you. It is indeed possible for a girl to cock block herself so to speak. :)

Also for chics that put the "bitch shield" up do yourself a favor and take it down. You can be friendly and be open to meeting some one while keeping the dudes away that you aren't interested in without arming the level 20 defenses.

//Just my 2 cents

Dec 13 11 - 11:11am
Sarah Morehouse

I think watching you do this would be the only thing that could drag me out to a bar at this point. Hilarious!

PUAs - I don't know whether to hate or pity them. I settle for hoping they find their manipulative material girl counterparts and settle down for a life of misery together.

Dec 17 11 - 5:33pm
westrings.tumblr

this is cute. were all maladjusted retards, why not have fun with it?
fyi, i stopped chasing women with big hats when i turned 25. dunzo.
monochrome is where its at, homey, get it girl!

Dec 18 11 - 6:04pm
ike

are you a woman because i want you to stroke my cock

Dec 18 11 - 9:08pm
Sgt. Jvillian

I'm hearing a lot of different reaction responses from this experiment. I would like to add:
First of all, some of the deficiencies
1. An experiment contains actions that must remain constant. Such as routines, body language, appearance, and rate of speech. If the said experimenter doesn't keep these constant then she/he risk a high probability of having extraneous variables that thereby influence the results.

"Extraneous Variables are undesirable variables that influence the relationship between the variables that an experimenter is examining. Another way to think of this, is that these are variables the influence the outcome of an experiment, though they are not the variables that are actually of interest. These variables are undesirable because they add error to an experiment. A major goal in research design is to decrease or control the influence of extraneous variables as much as possible."
2. Another error is her naivety in implementation. To my understanding, she dressed and used the same routines that are applicable in clubs, at the grocery store. Of course the result of that would be weird responses. At a grocery store,you are way too out of the norm to be taken seriously.
3.Shes needs to have a deeper understanding of how people perceive her. As a woman, she is automatically placed in a category by most individuals. Generally speaking, women in our society are viewed upon as more trustworthy than men. Additionally, women are usually going trust other women before they trust a man. Since part of the purpose of pick up routine is to build up trust, it seems to be quite absurd gestures that she is engaging in. In a similar respect, its like Johnny Depp going up to random people and trying to quality himself to them. "Please believe me good Sir! I really really am a popular person and a great actor.." ...Just imagine that...most people would think that he is just joking or MAD. In the same respect, her seemingly try hard attempts are getting in the way of the progress that she wishes to obtain.

Secondly we have the double standard:

1.The assumptions that people have of the Negs. That is, most people make the mistake that Negs are insults. That is not true. They are suppose to be intended for the purpose of providing a playful comment...In other words, a means of flirting or a push/pull social dynamic quality to the interaction.

2. "It's gross and manipulative. No, not all men are gross and manipulative, although I know PUAs like to repeat this to themselves over and over like a mantra. Decent guys with a bit of confidence don't need to play lame mind games to get attention from women." Responses like these are probably the result of the social conditioning that most people are exposed to in Western cultures.

THE MYTH: The paradigm which suggest that women are the victims. Women are the unwilling/reluctant participants in this dating game. Most men are conniving and are taking something away from the woman.
______________________________________________________
This is possibly the reason why women are still oppressed. They are still viewed by many as children..pedestalized.
The Reality: Both men and women use various things to increase their likelihood that they will attract a mate.
For example, women may use make-up (possibly to hide imperfections or to put emphasis on certain features and thus at least give themselves a chance or time in establishing their true personality), push-up bras, hair dye and social proof of quality (being around other women).

For example, men may work on the delivery of their approach(possibly to subdue their nervousness or insecurities and thus at least give themselves a chance or time in establishing their true personality), work on their confidence, place a banana in their pocket and/or dress presentable.

Both of these examples can potentially be used for manipulative malice purposes. However, realize that these are just tools. For instance, a hammer can be used to make a house or to bash someone's head in.
If you would like me to clarify things, just email me at firedog445@yahoo.com
-Jvillian-

Feb 04 12 - 12:23am
MikeFromCanada

I like you. Smart and concise. This should be easy to understand, even for a feminist.