Not a member? Sign up now
True Stories: My Problem With Nice Guys
What's so sexy about nice?
by Rachel Dratch
I had always had a problem with Nice Guys in the past. I didn’t know it at the time, but it was my problem. Well, Nice Guys, hear ye, hear ye: I paid for it dearly. I think it all started in eighth grade. It may be a common teenage girl trait to go for a real asshole. Did I watch too much Happy Days as a child? I did have socks with Fonzie on them in fourth grade that were my pride and joy. Did I learn everything about boys from a guy who snaps his fingers and several nameless girls come running to him, not minding that they aren’t the only one and will have the light of the Fonz shining on them only for mere moments? Somewhere in my brain, “nice” did not equal boyfriend material. What was sexy about nice?
In eighth grade, I had my first encounter with a nice boy who liked me. Chris was a gem. To ask me out, he sent me a singing telegram through some service that would call you up and sing the “telegram” to you on the phone. I still remember the words.
Excuse me if I’m shy
But on you I’ve had my eye
Please accept a date with me
At least give it a try
You know it would be great
If you’d accept this date
Please say yes and I’ll be happy
If you will be my date!
I was flattered, I was tickled. I genuinely liked this guy. I called him up and said yes. I think that was the first boy who ever asked me out. Well, except for this guy named Matt in seventh grade. We “dated” for one week until he broke up because I was “spending too much time with my friends.” The funny thing about Matt was, he left our town soon after eighth grade, but when I was at Dartmouth, I saw his name in the class below mine. I asked him—“Are you Matt who used to live in Lexington?” He said yes, but he had absolutely no recollection of me and didn’t seem at all amused by my attempt at junior high nostalgia. I think he gave me a blank stare and a grunt. Throw that onto the Dartmouth pile.
But as for Chris, the first Nice Guy, the Nicest of the Nice—I don’t quite remember if we went on a date or we were just “dating.” I think we were kind of seeing each other although we had no physical contact whatsoever. This was a simpler time. Or I was just a simple girl. Once we were at a “boy/girl party”—that’s what we called them back then; these days they are probably called “blow-job parties”—and he asked me if I wanted to “take a walk.” Code for making out. I said no! I knew nothing of making out. I think I was just scared. I didn’t want to. And besides, he was nothing like Fonzie. Where was his swagger, his underlying adolescent boy assholery? It wasn’t there. He played the trombone. He would go on to Haverford.
I know we went on one date. Again, I was terrified. I didn’t know how to be alone with a boy. So what did I do? I brought a friend. To the naked eye, I was just being an annoying junior high school girl, but again I was driven by fear. His dad picked us up and drove me and my friend and him to the Burlington Mall. I think I bought a Wiffle ball.
Cut to, now we are juniors in high school, long after our awkward junior high breakup, which consisted of me coming back from the summer and saying I thought we should break up (even though all we ever did to “date” was chat on the phone) and then ignoring him because of my own massive awkwardness. I was in a play, and after the show, Chris gave me flowers with a note that said “from your not-so-secret admirer.” The Nicest of the Nice was back.
We didn’t run in the same crowds, per se. I was generally in the smart classes, but like I said, I hung out with more the jock/party-in-the-woods crew. (Fun Fact: Many of them are named in the “Sully and Denise” sketch we did on SNL with Ben Affleck.) I bumped into Chris in the hallway soon after the flowers incident, and he asked me out on a date. By now we were sixteen or seventeen, but I may as well have been thirteen with my level of comfort in dating. Then came the moment in my life I wish I could take back. I’m sure there’s more than one, but I think this one haunts me because I was young. It’s the sort of moment from your youth that you wish you could go back with your adult brain and fix for yourself and, more importantly, for the injured party.
Lest you get the wrong picture, Chris wasn’t only Nice. He wasn’t some milquetoast character from the movies. He was really smart, and he was funny too and he was a cute guy. He called me up to set up our date. By now, my thirteen-year-old fear brain had taken over and I wasn’t looking forward to the date. I really don’t know why. Because he showed such fervent interest in me? Because I needed that danger or swagger in him or a feeling of inferiority in myself to feel interested? When he called to set the date up, though, he was turning on the charm. He had given a lot of thought to this and he suggested dinner and a movie—dinner at Bel Canto, one of the Italian restaurants in town. This was the classier joint with white cloth tablecloths, a step above Mario’s, which had vinyl red-checkered tablecloths. I remember he said that we could get a romantic table in the corner or something like that, a concept that sent me mentally fleeing. In the middle of this call, the other phone line rang. I was on my parents’ phone with Chris and said, “Could you hold on a sec?” and picked up the “kids’ line”—the ancient equivalent of call waiting. It was my friend Eve. “Eve! I don’t know what to do! Chris is on the other line and he’s talking about this date. He’s making it all romantic and stuff. What should I do? Now I don’t want to go!” I don’t quite remember the words but it was something along those lines. “He’s talking about a romantic table in the corner! Oh my God!”
I flipped back to Chris to continue begrudgingly making these plans. “Hi. I’m back.”
“Hi. You know, you can hear through to the other line on this phone.”
“Huh? . . . Oh.”
My mind didn’t comprehend that this could be true. What was he talking about? Was that really possible? In a slight panic, I went forward, not addressing what he had just said at all. Here’s where I wish I had some adult judgment working for me and had actually addressed what had happened.
I awkwardly hurried off the phone with Chris. I discovered in the next few days after running some tests that indeed, through a glitch in the phone system, you could hear the other line. I didn’t mention it to Chris, apologize, explain, attempt to make an excuse, anything. I simply ignored it. We did go out to a movie and it was hurried and perfunctory. By then I was at full dread mode, only compounded by my gaffe. We went to see Airplane 2 and didn’t go out to dinner before or after. I was treating it like an unpleasant appointment I had made and just had to get through.
Class act that he was, he never held my immaturity or rudeness, depending on how you want to frame it, against me. Our senior year, he signed my yearbook. I was with my friends after school, hanging out on the benches, when I sat down to read what he wrote. It was the first time I can remember crying not out of sadness but from sweetness. This is what he wrote:
“Rachel—There was a time when I would have done anything for you, and I mean anything. I wanted to be, and I guess I still do, your Errol Flynn, Cary Grant, and Indiana Jones all rolled up into one. You are a truly beautiful person. You will wow ’em wherever you go. Remember that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark where he lassos the girl and pulls her into him? Well . . . that’s what I’d like to do with you.”
I know. I was a damn idiot.
Meet someone nice or un-nice, of either gender, over at Nerve Dating.
Reprinted from Girl Walks into a Bar… by Rachel Dratch by arrangement with Gotham Books, a member of Penguin Group (USA) Inc., Copyright © 2012 by Rachel Dratch







Commentarium (72 Comments)
Awesome essay!
Can cougarchats be stopped?
Speaking as a nice guy, this has always infuriated me
Assholes always get the girl. No wonder women hate men.
They do it to themselves. It's not yours or my fault when neither of us have anything to do with it. There lives,there buisness,not my fucking problem right?
And that's not speaking as a "nice guy" or "an asshole", it's the truth.
Aw, it must be real hard to be a dude. You tell 'em. Speak some more truth. You clearly just know SO much about it. Fucking bitches, amiright?
@Matt :) Thanks.
@Matt
"Aw, it must be real hard to be a dude. You tell 'em. Speak some more truth. You clearly just know SO much about it. Fucking bitches, amiright?"
Um,no. I didn't say or imply that at all,where are you getting that from? Fucking Bitches,really? Wow,and I detect a slight,or not so slight undertone of sarcasm towards my percieved sexism,further from the truth. All I was merely saying is that, are people,men or women,not responsible for themselves and there actions, there fore,in a situation(s) like what we are discussing here,and why is it anyone else's problem? Hmm? I mean,it's not my,yours,or anyone elses fault that said hypothetical girl went out with said "hypothetical" asshole,and it fell apart on her/him/them. I have nothing to do with this,it's not my buisness not my problem. It is hard being a "dude",although,I prefer the term guy,cause I'm not a dude or a bro by any means.
It must be nice for you that this "isn't your business or problem." But for lots of us ladies here, the prevalent notion that "assholes always get the girl" and "I'm a 'nice guy' but no women will date me because they only like men who are dicks" IS a problem. It's a stupid stereotype that demeans us and ultimately suggests that we women deserve bad treatment because we bring it on ourselves. By replying to a comment professing how little you care about "these people" (and by people, you mean women--what else could you mean when you say, "They bring it on themselves"?), you illustrate your ignorance and privilege. Do us all a favor from now on and keep it to yourself.
If he was really so nice, why didn't he ever ask what would make her comfortable? Maybe group dates for awhile?
On the other hand, why did she feel obligated to go out with someone she wasn't attracted to?
Kids obviously feel way too much pressure to follow a script rather than trust their instincts.
1) As a nice guy, he did not know he was making her uncomfortable.
As a guy who thinks women are equal he naturally expects her to communicate
her needs instead of expecting him to use ESP.
2) She did like him, she just felt he lacked a certain something and she now
regards those needs as stupid/unrealistic/counterproductive.
"expects her to communicate her needs instead of expecting him to use ESP" - exactly.
"I wasn’t looking forward to the date. I really don’t know why. Because he showed such fervent interest in me? Because I needed that danger or swagger in him or a feeling of inferiority in myself to feel interested?"
I appreciate the honesty of this. I only wish it weren't so! I'm glad the author learned her lesson at the end of high school, but many women keep doing the exact same thing and never really realize what's going on.
Even in my long-term relationships I've noticed the same dynamic at work: as long as I'm detached and closed-off, she's smitten. But if I start opening up and becoming vulnerable, she loses interest and pulls back. So I pull back too, and lo, she's smitten again. All well and good, but it makes genuine intimacy impossible. (And maybe that's the idea, since intimacy is terrifying to many people.)
I'm a woman who's struggled with the same issue, the (clichéed) "only fall for detached , arrogant men who make you feel inferior". Lately I just consciously make an effort to appreciate kindness and closeness over perceived "coolness" or mystery.
The lack of logic in the choices of my own sex does baffle me.
Listen, just because you had a period of time in your life where you were attracted to men who treated you poorly doesn't mean that's how it is for all women. We've got just as much logic--or lack thereof--as men. If you buy into that misogynist crap, you're clearly still selling yourself short.
You are so, so right. As a straight man who has put up with the anti-nice guy thing on occasion, I can definitely verify that it is both more prevalent in younger years, and not even close to universal even then. A lot of women (and hopefully a lot of men) actually ARE turned on by genuine, open, considerate and trustworthy (as well as sexy, fun, intelligent, etc). I know it works for me when someone is like that, and I get plenty of positive feedback to my own commitment to those values. It can be just a question of knowing what you are looking for, and knowing where to look (and where NOT to look).
A lot of ladies I know think there must be something wrong with you to be nice and respectful to them because they're so hung up on their own hang ups.
You WERE an idiot! But thank god for growing up, realizing past mistakes and forgiving yourself for them. We´ve all been there.
That was the cutest note in the history of cute notes!There is hope for the nice guy. My friend is stepping out (They have an odd almost relationship so I like to give it funny old fashioned names) with a nice guy and they are ADORABLE together. Tbh I think the nice guy is probably the one who would get my vote even if it were combined with "omg this moment is too cute!"
true story: any guy who laments the fact they can't get dates because they're such a nice guy are actually just very boring.
You win today's award for being dismissive and glib in the same sentence. You also win the award for being a clueless dumbass, and for ignoring the entire point of the article, which includes a rare admission (as do some of the more intelligent comments) that women are indeed flukey, skittish and behave in ways that do not serve them well. The really baffling part is that they know it, and continue to do so! It's just another form of self-destructive addiction, I suppose.
men do it too. men and women are much more alike in this way than we are now beginning to admit.
Dude, she was 13-17 years old at the time. Plenty of girls / young women make mistakes like this out of insecurity, fear, peer pressure, etc. It's pretty revealing of your own fucked-up views of women that you are using this one example of a high school girl being scared to go out on a date to prove all women's "self-destructive addiction."
mp - you may be "glib and dismissive", but you're also on to something. I date nice guys exclusively. I choose the interesting ones; men who are passionate, intelligent, creative etc. On the other hand, guys that want to talk about how sick they are of girls dismissing them for being nice usually aren't bringing much to the table. Often, they aren't even very nice - I bet the first guy who responded to you thinks of himself as a "nice guy". Yuck. To that guy, a word of advice. Making others aware of your need for therapy in 60 seconds or less probably isn't going to help you out in the dating world. Also, you read the story above and concluded that Rachel Dratch thinks women are "flukey" (is that a word?), "skittish", and "self-destructive"? Many women tend to prefer slightly higher reading comprehension in potential mates.
@LL- Yes. This.
Whats more depressing: the nice guy who is frequently rejected or the middle aged spinster who is reliving her junior high school years in public under the mistaken impression that it provides insight?
I get it. You were juvenile then and you are now.
This!!! Thank you for calling out this hipster bullshit!
"Spinster"? Where are you from, 1845?
I think there's something about "nice guys" being sensitive and possibly picking up on the potential even in people who are really insecure - which is the stage most people in jr and high school are in at that age.
Note: this Chris dude sounded genuinely nice. This doesn't include the socially awkward and secretly angry and passive aggressive like those dudes who turned into the yowling types that dominated early '00s radio and sang like this: "Errr hrrrv srrro merrrch perrrrn" <<( "I have so much pain/porn")
This whole article doesn't sound so much about being about "nice guys" as it is a little girl with unrealistic romantic projections and expectations. Fonzie's her dream guy modeal/idol? And yet when guys do this and say they want there ideal woman to look like a blond,big boobed playboy model,you turn around and call them sexist etc. Not saying I do that,I don't,but pot calling the kettle black much?
http://staticbird.blogspot.com/2009/09/nice-guys-finishin-tube-sock.html
she has an interesting POV. don't agree with all her conclusions, but some. also wonder if it could have as easily been written by a male and if you flipped the gender on every reference if it would still be true. probably.
Also, admittedly I'm male, but Chris sounds really boring to me. I agree with "meh" up at the top.
This is so common among teenaged girls. It's a direct comment on self esteem - I am awful so why the fuck would I want to date someone who would want me (someone with such low standards). I remember being disgusted by any guy who showed genuine interest. Until I grew up and grew a little self worth. Now my boyfriend is the nicest, but then again, I'm 30.
Sigh, and how many good men suffered at your hands while you were taking your time growing up? How the hell do women get this way in the first place? I've met dozens of European women (several in their early 20s) who are calm, confident, and show no traces of this kind of neurotic crap.
Double sigh. Those lucky Europeans, born confident, self-accepting, and neuroses-free. It must be the air here in the states.
"It's a direct comment on self-esteem"
I don't think that's all of it, though -- chalking it up to self-esteem is too simplistic. "Ovaries" had a point when he mentioned non-American women, because our Puritan attitudes about sex are definitely NOT universal. And those Puritan attitudes lead to power games in relationships, which is part of what this is really about: women's tendency to be attracted to power, which is no secret (as Henry Kissinger pointed out), but is also mired in ambivalence. Fortunately, some people also grow out of that, too.
No, Balls, they weren't necessarily born that way. (Your sarcasm says quite a bit about you, BTW). They just weren't trained to be that way. By other women, most of whom believe that men need to be "trained", etc.
Let's imagine for a moment, that women treated men with the same respect that they demand from men. Suddenly, men are no longer disposable, whipping posts, sources of sex and money, dinners and gifts. Suddenly they feel that it's not dangerous to approach a woman to say hello. Huh. Imagine that.
I'm expecting the usual backlash. Please save it, it's all been said before, here and elsewhere.
Well said Ovaries.
Part of the problem comes from the over reaction during the 70's on of Women's
lib. The whole we don't need men thing and the renaming of everything that has
the word men in it. And the presentation of the sensitive guy as being the one they
desired despite the fact they always still wanted to date the jocks instead.
I really doubt that all that many women are truly learning their lesson.
I'm sure they do get tired of the jerks, but part of it is that they no longer get
hit on as often and want to grab on to a guy before all of their charms fade.
As guys get older, they are less willing to put up with the crap and women
confuse this with the a-hole vibe.
Really the problem has always been that men listened to the bs women said
they wanted rather than simply observing what the women were actually
doing. If you see a guy always order a vanilla ice cream cone and tells you his
favorite flavor is chocolate you would at least start to wonder what was going
on rather than accepting it at face value.
Here's the whole problem. A lot of nice girls and nice guys are boring. And a lot of the exciting and slightly dangerous girls and guys are either fucked up, or assholes or bitches. And I haven't met very many people (either women or men) who seemed to embody the perfect balance between these polar opposite (yet true) stereotypes. So if everyone is holding out for the "PERFECT" person (myself included) who just happens to be really nice most of the time, yet a totally awesome wild animal in the sack, then I'd say the chances of this occurring are equal to winning at lotto. As in, sure it COULD HAPPEN, but GOOD LUCK! I don't excuse myself from any of this. The current gal I'm dating had been playing coy with me until she inadvertently rubbed herself against my fairly large erect wang pulsating in my pants the first time we fooled around on the couch. Just before she made this discovery by exclaiming 'oh!' it looked like the night was coming to end. Then she wanted to boogie down. Yes, I said boogie down. THESE EPISODES MESS WITH MY HEAD. I'm not quite the nice guy anymore that I was, and I'm not fully the asshole. But I still feel kinda sad about it all. WTF!
I hope you sent that woman, er, packing; or at least called her out on her abrupt shift. A woman who just wanted to get into your pants to experience one part of your anatomy. Huh. I bet that's never happened before. Or at least it's rarely admitted to in mixed company.
I didn't call her out on it. I didn't have to. It was so obvious from her reaction and my noticing her reaction. She went home. But I'm supposed to see her Sat. I am filled with ambivalence. Mostly b/c I've gone a very long while without a romp, and partly b/c I've turned down a few potentially 'easy lays' in a row. I'm not sure how long I'm supposed to pretend I'm a monk before I lose my mind. My ballz have their own agenda.
Good, at least there was tacit acknowledgment of the situation. She probably been jilling off fantasizing about you, or at least your unit, all week. Why not have a mutual romp, as long as it's clear beforehand what it's about? Good luck, I wish I could say that I had a potential romp lined up for this weekend.
I'm sorry, what? This guy tells a story about how a girl was only slightly interested in him until she realised he was sexually attractive to her--RIGHT AFTER he talks about how the mystical perfect person would be both nice and wild in bed--and we're supposed to read this as a bad thing and something that reflects badly on the woman?
Would you have rather she was horrified at your arousal? If the night was going so badly--with her giving every indication that the night was going to end--why were you so aroused in the first place? Do you get off on ambivalence and hate unalloyed arousal? So your "balls have their agenda", but her interest is somehow grotesque?
Man, I got my fingers crossed that this poor chick realises that you've got skewed notions of sexuality before she gets in too mired in you. Ugh.
@Jess YES. Reading this was so confusing. He's the one who got hard in the first place. Why was it so unacceptable for her to be turned on by his interest? And so you're ambivalent but you're going to sleep with her anyway? Seems like women have to be on the look-out for self-described "nice guys" who are really assholes. Please explain what happened here more clearly.
@@mr. man She's been fantasizing about him? I'll repeat: HE had the erection, she just appreciated it. That's a lot better than the alternative, and mr. man should count himself freaking lucky to have possibly found the elusive perfect balance in a woman.
Mr Man, will you marry me? Or, if I'm too old for you, perhaps your grandfather is available?
Who cares what this unfunny broad has to say about anything!
Seriously, who watches that dead corpse called "SNL" and thinks its funny with its lame self referental humor that is only funny if you live in the East Side and listen to NPR. The "trying too hard" to be "quirky" humor that just makes me sigh. Enough already. I'm zanny and neurotic whoo-hooo isn't that funny!
i think she's funny. i think SNL has had some really funny castmembers in the last couple years. i think YOU'RE the cliche with the tired "SNL sucks" trope.
I guess I shouldn't have to say this, but this author's pure anecdotal account of a nice guy seems--shall we say---very fucking limited. Does she really live in a world where there aren't scales and varieties of people, where there are both "bad boys" with shells of armadillo armor, that treat women with respect, and men that are calm and composed on the surface, but a fucking wild animal in the sack?
Yeah. I have to say, as someone who was friends with a lot of "bad boys" in High School, most of them were really, well, nice. Yeah, they weren't hurting for interested girls, but they weren't mean to them or disrespectful or anything. If anything, the quiet nerds that weren't getting any were the ones that you poked with a stick and they exploded with misogynistic bullshit.
I guess I'm saying in my experienced the whole line about "assholes always getting the girl" has been just that: a line. Most of the assholes I know are painfully single.
Oh, and also, this was kind of disappointingly unfunny.
Except they were concerned about getting laid, not married.
Part of the problem is the way women treat sex. They want sex, and
with a bad boy they know they will get it and the guy will leave.
They don't want a relationship with them, but they don't want to be
called a slut by their girl friends either.
With someone with relationship material, they want to treat it as if it were
some gift from god and hope that will be enough to keep the guy rather
than actually being a worthwhile companion.
So I am trying to understand the point you're making. Do you actually think women are less likely to have sex with a guy they consider a serious relationship prospect? Because... that is not a real thing that happens. Maybe they'll wait a few more dates before having sex, but A) that's due to some internalized misogyny about how having sex lowers a woman's value, and B) an actually nice guy will not be infuriated by this.
@nope
I so agree about the nerds being misogynistic (in a broad sense). At least in middle/high school, assholes have access to girls and therefore are friends with them and have the opportunity to know them as people. The 'less popular' can oftentimes idealize women as sex symbols instead of people, which is actually a bit cruel because some girls who might go out with the 'nerds' are turned down for not meeting their somehow perfect expectations. From personal experience I've heard some conversations amongst these kinds of people which go above and beyond objectifying women to being truly disgusting. Perhaps its a defense mechanism because they know nobody's interested.
This doesn't match my experience at all, and seems uncomfortably like victim-blaming. In my experience there's a fairly equal distribution of misogyny amongst all walks of life. If nerds seem to express it in a more outré form, it partially comes from the fact that they don't have any real experience to base things on, so they depend on media sources for their information. But then that's the way nerds are about a lot of things.
As for falling short of perfect expectations, it's not as if there aren't plenty of nerdy or otherwise-unappealing women who are holding out for Fabio on a horse. Seeing the opposite sex as a "get-out-of-jail-free" card, i.e. a refutation to a lifetime's worth of humiliation, is hardly an exclusively male trait.
BTW "bad boys" and "assholes" aren't the same thing at all. My friends in high school were mostly the former, but they treated their girlfriends well. The real assholes were the preppy/sporty types who had a smiling, clean-cut confidence that went down well with teachers, but masked total contempt for everyone and everything.
Ok, but can nice guys handle sexually forward/promiscuous women ? I've tried this before with them and it tends to freak them out.
I wonder if you're confusing the 'nice guy-asshole' axis with the 'sexually adventurous/high libido' axis? They are unrelated, actually. Or for that matter, mistaking neurotic, repressed and uptight for nice guys - again, whole different species.
So yeah, plenty of nice guys can handle sexually forward/promiscuous women, because a) lots of them are built the same way and b) genuine nice guys are less likely to be judgmental.
As a bonus, and unlike a lot of assholes, they will feel the same way in the morning as they did last night, because they have their shit sorted out about who they are and what they do, and are honest with themselves about double standards.
Great essay. I didn't listen to the "women prefer assholes" trope, and married a nice guy. Do I regret it? Not for one second. I have a best friend who treats me with respect, makes me laugh, and doesn't mind unleashing the beast in the bedroom. And who's complaining about romantic dinners at the corner table? Really??
I think women are often put off by nice guys because they can be a bit awkward and nervous at first, which seems less-than-manly. That's because they want to impress you and make you happy, unlike the "sexy" asshole who doesn't give a shit. Give them a little validation and you'll find most of them are perfectly manly, sexy men under the surface, minus the abandonment/respect/drug/alcohol issues that come with the bad boys.
that's awesome. i'm super happy for you. maybe some day it will happen to me too.
Well said, JCB. There ought to be more like you. A *lot* more! Please write a book, or at least an NDC article about this. Ladies, isn't it time to grow up a little, and as Richard said above, repair the dichotomy between what you say you want, and what you seek?
It's kind of dispiriting to watch this comment thread degenerate into the usual battle, because the thing is that -- the article's title aside -- this isn't really about nice guys vs. assholes, but about the tendency that (some) women have to lose interest in a guy if they know he's smitten.
Like the author, many women want their men to be mysterious, dangerous, and somewhat out of reach. That's fine, but it means you'll usually end up with men who aren't that into you. It's easy to play it cool if you don't give a shit, but when a guy is falling for a woman, he doesn't want to be mysterious and out of reach. He wants to be open, transparent, intimate, ecstatic in passionate fusion with her. But a lot of the time, she doesn't want that, because his openness isn't what turns her on. The challenge, the risk, the anxiety are gone. (And like I said earlier, intimacy terrifies a lot of people anyway.)
What template does that give men for their romantic relationships, really? Well, we learn that if we really like a woman, than the odds are that it won't work out -- and that a lot of the time, the fact that we like her IS the reason it doesn't work, because it telegraphs things that she finds unattractive (unless we're already of such high status -- good looks, fame, popularity, wealth -- that she feels like she's lucking out). And in truth, maybe it makes us less attractive: needier, for one.
So we learn to stop caring, to stop allowing ourselves to fall passionately in love, because it's tactically disadvantageous. And some of us find that as soon as we close ourselves off -- as soon as our hearts, once so open, are no longer available to anyone -- then we're attracting women by the dozens. Maybe we're even getting all the sex and female interest we want, and "scoring" with women who we thought were totally out of our league...but it means nothing anymore. We want to love the women we're with, but it's a pale, sad shadow of what we once felt; we see them as if at a distance -- with empathy, but without hope.
To me, this article is about that awkward time in your life where you are still figuring out 'relationships' (or at least the junior-high/high-school version) and how to interact with people in that context. She says she didn't like him because he was too nice, but it really seems the idea of anything romantic sent her into a mini-breakdown of nerves. It doesn't really sound like she was dating up a storm with bad-boys either, or she wouldn't have been so nervous about it all.
And why are people saying Rachel is pathetic for writing this story? She's just sharing a story from her life - something that really happened to her, and she looks back on with mixed emotions. If you want to say it is pathetic for her to tell anecdotes of her life... then I guess that makes anyone who has ever written a memoir or autobiography pathetic.
And I think she paints Nice Guy in a very complimentary light - the whole point is that she wishes she could go back and do it all differently, but we can't, because life goes on, despite all the ridiculous mistakes we make along the way.
As for this story being one-dimensional - it is only one story out of an entire book, so I doubt this is meant to be a complete representation of relationships... Especially since it is set in junior high and high school.
And just a note about the 'nice guys always finish last' thing which I get so tired of hearing: I know it's been said before, but
1) plenty of nice girls finish last (I'm talking about normal nice girls, not the one super-hot super-nice super-funny perfect girl you are thinking of as a counterexample!)
and
2) if you're really into a girl who is always getting with the douchebags, maybe you should pick a better girl? And if your argument is that you can't control who you like... well, maybe that's her argument too.
@AAC, a lot of that resonates with me. But I just want to add a couple of things. I used to think I was that "nice guy." And in some ways, I was. But I also could be guilty of being so over-romantic that the women I would fall for rightly felt that I was not always relating to them but to a fantasy. And that was not "nice" of me. It was, in fact, depersonalizing. Also, I tended to be too accommodating, too eager to please, to the point that it made me look like I lacked self-respect. And, in fact, I did. No woman is going to to be attracted to that because it is going to inevitably remind her of the things she has had to overcome in herself. My fling with girl who felt rules just didn't apply to her made ME do more interesting things. Finally, while I've overcome a lot of things, I have to say that compared to some people I know, I'm really not that exciting to be around. I have my moments and I do treat people well, but I'm not Mr Excitement.
When it comes to assholes/bad boys, I've seen a few in action and even been friends with a couple of them. First of all, they do get around. In my late 20s, when I could still count the number of women I'd slept with on the fingers of one hand, they were in triple digits. Literally. They do treat women a certain way and they get around to a lot of women so they do kind of poison the well. But here's the thing. The asshole/bad boys who were my friends were also hilarious, dynamic people who were full of energy. Never boring. And I think that plenty of women are so attracted to how much fun these guys are that they are willing to take a chance on, under-estimate or just overlook the potential assholery.
If Mr Nice Guy at his best is a lovely picnic with a bottle of wine beside a babbling brook, Bad Boy is a rollercoaster. Sometimes a person wants romance, sometimes a person wants thrills. I don't think one choice is either permanent or intrinsically better.
"But I also could be guilty of being so over-romantic that the women I would fall for rightly felt that I was not always relating to them but to a fantasy. And that was not "nice" of me. It was, in fact, depersonalizing."
"When it comes to assholes/bad boys, I've seen a few in action and even been friends with a couple of them. First of all, they do get around. In my late 20s, when I could still count the number of women I'd slept with on the fingers of one hand, they were in triple digits. Literally. They do treat women a certain way and they get around to a lot of women so they do kind of poison the well."
Wow,that's quite the contradiction. Not on you,in general. One form is depersonalizing/humanizing is ok,but the other isn't? I don't think it's right either way,but one thing I never got,well,I do get it,I just don't see why I have to put up with it so to say,is "nice guy depersonalizing bad" "bad boy/asshole depersonalizing good", like I say,they do this to themselves. And how does being energetic/lively make it ok to be an asshole? That's the douchebag with a hear of gold argument,you're still a douchebag,I mean,it's basically saying it's ok for someone to walk all over me. Hmm,I sense certain contradictions/hypocrisies in all of this.
No, I'm not saying bad boy/asshole depersonalization is OK. Just likely to have a lot more fun to go with it. Maybe you read too fast. Here's what I wrote: "And I think that plenty of women are so attracted to how much fun these guys are that they are willing to take a chance on, under-estimate or just overlook the potential assholery."
I don't think assholery is OK. I don't think that women who date bas boy/assholes think it's OK, either. I've just observed that a lot of bad boy/assholes have a very fun, charming side.
Dartmouth Dartmouth Haverford.
That is a great picture of Rachel. Beautiful eyes. great pic!
nice guys, ugh. in my experience, self-identified "nice guys" tend to be clingy, possessive, self-righteous wet blankets who blame women for their own problems. Can we just get rid of the "nice guys"/"assholes" dichotomy already?
I have to agree. I was once one of those "nice guys." Maybe I wasn't quite that bad, but close enough to know exactly what you are talking about.
Couldn't bear to slog through all these comments, but I wonder if anyone mentioned that nice guys aren't typically interested in nice girls either? Nice guys - many guys -are drawn to the far more interesting bad girls, and pay the same price.
Many of us - boys and girls both - finally figured out that we aren't actually all that nice anyway, relaxed a bit, and stopped prejudging so much. Way more fun.
Still a nerd though.
Having been conceived unintentionally, I think my parents taught me to be a nice guy as a precaution to make gaoddamn sure there were no grandkids. I specifically remember the instruction to always be nice to women was not coincidentally during the same conversation where they advised me to always use condoms.
From there to my mid-thirties I muddled through a wasteland of celibacy, punctuated by the occasional relationship with unappreciative women who treated me like shit. Decades after Freud's "something to do with shoes" quip, science has figured out the hows and whys that move the black little hearts of women.
No thank you ma'am.
Ever heard of the song 'Nice Guys Finish Last'? Its funny and a bit stupid at the same time.lol!