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April 14, 2011
The Impending Disaster Of "The Dark Knight Rises"
Why you should be worried about Christopher Nolan's third Batman movie.
By James Brady Ryan
I'm worried about Christopher Nolan. Well, no, I'm sure he's doing fine, because he's most likely rich as hell and universally adored. Really, I'm worried for Nolan, and more specifically for his upcoming trilogy topper The Dark Knight Rises. Because as the internet waits with bated breath for even the smallest bits of casting news — I heard he got George Clooney to play “Man at Bar” and Courteney Cox for “Older Prostitute No. Two” — I keep having flashbacks to Spider-Man 3. And X-Men: The Last Stand. And... well, you probably get the idea. As more roles get revealed, I can't help but think that this film is going to be a total disaster.
“As more roles get revealed, I can't help but think that this film is going to be a total disaster.”
Call it the Curse of Raised Stakes and its corollary, Villain Oversaturation Syndrome. It's a particular kind of sloppiness that disproportionately affects the sci-fi and fantasy genres, and it's taken down successful franchises before. The Curse works like this: you've made a good or great movie or two, and people want more. But you can't give them the same dish all over again. So you up the ante: your hero saved the girl last time? Now he saves the city. Did he save the city? Make him save the world! And if it's the final film in a trilogy, you know you have to go out with an epic bang, and nothing says “epic bang” like one man taking on five dudes at once. As anyone who's seen Boot Camp Boys 3 can tell you, that kind of action ends in a mess.
Right now, Catwoman, Bane, Ra's al Ghul, and the Holiday Killer are all confirmed roles in The Dark Knight Rises. Al Ghul is probably confined to flashbacks, but that appearance strongly suggests the rumors of Marion Cotillard playing his daughter, Talia al Ghul, are true. Of course, we can't know what the story will be yet — and potentially these are not all villains, as three of the four characters have switched sides in the comics several times. But Nolan has never been one to shy away from his characters' dark sides, and I can't help but worry that our boy in black is going to be juggling one too many psychopaths in his third go-round.
While the idea of a hero facing off against a veritable basketball team of baddies can be very exciting on the page, it's terribly hard to pull off, especially in a movie. Villains need backstory. They need nuance, they need motivation, and they need to be needed. If Batman spends the first thirty minutes dealing with Catwoman's crime spree and al Ghul shows up to avenge her father's death only to realize she's too late because Bane already broke the Bat's back, that will not be a good movie. The Joker and Two Face worked in The Dark Knight because their characters played so neatly off one another, but the more people you add to the equation, the less likely you'll come up with an elegant solution.
And this is, in the end, the irony of the Curse. No one piles on villains because they want a movie to be bad. They want the movie to be awesome! But there are many ways to get to awesome, and more often than not addition is not the solution. Suspense and investment are not automatically created simply because the potential body count is bigger. And far too often the plot twists and contrivances writers and directors subject us to in order to justify this increase are what sink the ship. Yes, the Joker is probably a hard act to top, but a third film with only one antagonist will still be awesome if it's a good movie.
Maybe I'm wrong; I seriously hope I am, because I like Nolan and I think his previous Batman films have been marvelous. Maybe he will pull this whole thing off with skill and I will sit dumbfounded in the theater as half-chewed popcorn tumbles out of my gaping mouth. And maybe some of these people won't be villains at all. But as a devotee of comics and the movies they turn into, I've been burned too many times by films that lose their center in a bid to go out as big as they can, abandoning all reason just so they can show me Magneto teaming up with the Phoenix to destroy San Francisco. So don't lose focus now, Nolan.
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Christopher Nolan
Commentarium (93 Comments)
I have faith in Nolan. He seems to know everything that can make a superhero movie suck and do the exact opposite. My meaningless prediction: Bane works for al Ghul(s) so his inclusion will be seamless. He won't be a "boss" type villain but a formidable heavy. Catwoman is introduced very early on, fades to the background as Selina Kyle/love interest for most of the film and then joins bats as cat when the shit hits the fan in the third act. As for Falcone--he's the loose cannon in the family that Al Ghul (whichever) exploits to go after Gotham again and will bring about the demise of that particular crime family, thus wrapping up the one story line that's gone across all three movies.
I hope you're right. but I'm not holding my breath...
Why so serious?
Christopher Nolan is directing it. That's why I should be worried about Christopher Nolan's third Batman movie.
why is that something to be worried about?
Did you not see the first two? Or do you just not know anything about Batman? ;)
Judging by your taste, Nolan "knowing less" about Batman makes for a better storyline than any of the comics...
Why so serious?
Christopher Nolan is the most overrated director since Spielberg.
Doesn't mean he's they're bad.
The FEATURE STORY today is a 750-word headline about "too-many-villains syndrome?" Really? How stinkin' insightful. I want the last 5 minutes of my life back, Brady-Ryan.
If you had any brains or foresight to speak of, you probably could have read the title, inferred the nature of the article, and then moved on, thus saving your precious 5 minutes.
It took you five minutes to read this?
Why so serious?
Holiday Killer, Talia and ever Ra's are NOT confirmed!
These are purely speculations!
The author of this text should have made better research.
Have to disagree with you on that one -- the only one that's pure speculation is Talia. Young Ra's shows up on the IMDb page, and Alberto Falcone/the Holiday Killer has been confirmed by several reputable sources. (Like here: http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118034129?refCatId=13)
Well, the movie is still in pre-production. Casting list is nothing but fan speculation. There was Katie Holmes listed playing Rachel Dawes' twin sister. When Spiderman 3 was in pre-production, one of the characters listed was Aunt May/Carnage.
Nothing is certain yet, but we will see.
Never, ever trust IMDB, as it is user generated and edited and very seldom is it updated accurately.
Further: http://www.slashfilm.com/rumor-joseph-gordonlevitt-play-alberto-falcone-...
The rumour started over on IGN, and was picked up by Variety and perpetuated until recently. This is similar to the Two-Face/Joker rumours of the sequel when Heath Ledger was brought up and rumours ran a muck that he was actually the Riddler.
In all likelyhood, he is indeed Alberto Falcone, but for future reference don't rely on IMDB for confirmation of casting. It's not very reliable.
C'mon fellas, why so serious?
Joseph Gordon-Levitt isn't the Holiday Killer.
In "Batman Begins" we had Ra's Al Ghul, Scarecrow, Falcone, Flask, Mr. Earl and Joe Chill. In "The Dark Knight" we had Lau, Joker, Two Face, Maroni, Cheechan, the entire mob and two corrupt cops. Nolan has superbly juggled a ton of characters in both films.
If Nolan's success has proven one thing about fanboys, it's that no matter how consistently and strongly someone succeeds, people will still doubt and expect failure.
What a very silly article, Mr. Ryan.
I agree that the first two films did a good job of juggling several plot lines (though Batman Begins did it better), but I think the essential difference with these villains is that they do come from the more fantastical side of the Batman world. By necessity, I think they require more back story than a gangster, and are much more easily mishandled.
JGL has also been confirmed by another reputable source to not be playing the role of Alberto Falcone. Again like a previous poster said, finish the research... but JGL's role isnt your main focus in your observation. Back to the topic at hand, I once also felt the same as you, "Nolan is packing way too many characters into one film... this is going to be tough to pull off!" Then I come back to reality and realize that where other directors fail at, Nolan blows them away in vision. Spiderman 3 didnt work because of the studios griphold on the entire project, they forced characters into the film and the director and producers lost control. Not the case with The Dark Knight Rises, Nolan has total control and the studio (Warner Bros.) realizes that the success of their franchise is 60% in Nolan's direction. When Nolan tells me 4 years before a movie comes out that he wants to do another one because the story is damn good... I believe him. You can be skeptical like I have been with each character confirmation that comes out, but remember this... Nolan isnt Raimi, and thank god for that. Trust in Nolan.
I agree with TH, the past films have had lots of villains. One you left out was Mr Zsasz. I'm no Batman expert, but he appears to be a noteworthy character in the comic world of Batman, and in 'Batman Begins' he only had a small part to play, 2 scenes. There is no reason that any of these new villains, including Bane, are going to be main characters until more has been release about the movie or the trailer comes out.
It's true, some may have much smaller parts than others. I think what's giving me this vibe is the combination of big names both character wise and actor wise -- and from what I've seen, Nolan likes to give his big names generally meaty roles.
Michael Cane as Alfred is meaty?
I would think so? Michael Cane portraited Alfred as a cornerstone in Bruce's life. Exactly how he was meant to be. His performance can not go understated.
This isn't a criticism on Cane, but a judgement on how 'meaty' his role is which basically can be summed up as 5 sarcastic lines and 5 inspirational lines. And continuing with big names getting meaty roles- Morgan Freeman?
Geez, why are you all SO serious?
i don't think it was a silly article, i think it's a valid terror. Let's be honest, none of Nolan's Blockbuster films are flawless, as fun as they are. I suspect this film, regardless of its mishaps is still going to be ten times more awesome than any Raimi, Singer, Burton, Donner superhero movie. or maybe not, regardless, Nolan's Batman vision is pretty great. having said, that, i'll repeat how i started, fearing the overall success of a movie with this much hype, considering the history of all third installments, is a valid terrror. don't hate the writer, he's just voicing what we're all too proud to admit.
And TH, i do like how you pointed out that all the films consisted of a number of baddies. I just hope they aren't as cardboard as the characters in Inception.
HEY. . . Why so serious?
um Burton? Batman Returns is still the best of the franchise ... 'hello there ... hell here' ... and Burton --- seamlessly --- intertwined Catwoman and the Penguin. My only issue is that he may have made Batman out to be more device-oriented vs hands-on. Point being, exclude Burton from that list
Looks like someone's grabbing for page hits by trying to make people rage. The entire point of this troll was that he intentionally left out facts. The X-Men trilogy is a poor source to cite, because the 3rd film was not directed by the same reputable director as the first 2. The third Spider-man had studio intervention that forced Venom in when the character was not necessary. The third Superman came after the huge production issues (Donner and Brando leaving, etc.) of the 2nd, less superior movie. The fact is, there has never been a "complete" trilogy for super hero films that retain all of the elements of the previous films (director, actors, director's influence on the film, etc.). Christopher Nolan is the first to do this with a comic book film, and given his spotless track record (sure, there are flaws in his films, but there are flaws in all films), I'm confident that he would not make a film that he didn't think was worth making.
Everything you said is quite right. But you forgot something... Cristopher Nolan is directing this one. After his last two movies (inception and thr dark knight) you seriously can't believe that the movie is going to be a total disaster. Because of the hype that will surround the movie and some of the things you've said this movie might not (MIGHT) meet general expectations, but... A total disaster? Nah, not a chance.
The only villain in this film should be the evil pianist Chandell...
Actually, Joel Schumaker Syndrome is confined to J.S. himself: he. just. sucks.
Whoa, I wonder why someone is so serious
Just because Alberto Falcone is in the movie doesn't mean that he'll be the Holiday Killer. Similarly, just because Bane and Catwoman are in the film doesn't mean that they'll be taking roles in the story that we would necessarily anticipate. Nolan has been known to shape the characters, especially the villains, to fit what works for the story, like combining Henri Ducard and Ra's al Ghul.
X-Men: The Last Stand sucked because Brett "Rush Hour" Ratner was at the helm. Spider-Man 3 sucked because Sam Raimi's Spider-Man franchise wasn't all that great anyway and after the second one it had nowhere to go but down. In my opinion, Nolan hasn't made a bad movie in his career and he only seems to get better at what he does. There's no need to worry mate.
Damn straight gray. Brett Ratner is a hack.
Ratner so serious
falcone wasnt even the holiday killer. harvey and gilda dent were. he just took credit to try and gain some respect.
Debatable. Gilda claims to have committed the first three murders, but stopped when she believed that Harvey had taken up the cause and murdered Alberto Falcone himself. Of course, Falcone's death was faked. The killer's true identity is never stated outright in the comics; it's entirely possible both Gilda and Alberto were responsible.
Correct. It is definitely implied that the 'Holiday Killer' role was played by multiple characters.
You guys are so serious. Why?
He did the first two right, if not almost perfect. I'm not worried.
Return of the jedi. Return of the king. Nolan is a haus. This movie will rock
last crusade?
Why
Nolan is 8-0 in his hollywood career. The Tank pretty much laid it down. Wow, what a waste of time this article was.
So
Nolan's yet to make a bad movie, and he's done pretty damn well with Bats thus far. Even if the casting rumors are all true, Falcone won't necessarily be the Holiday Killer, and I'm pretty sure flashback-Ra's woukd just be setting up Talia. Bane's probably not gonna be more than just muscle, sadly, and Catwoman could go either way as far as villain or anti-hero. I'm really not worried at all about this film.
Serious
Are you kidding me? You should be banned from this site for this article. Trashing Nolan, are you insane? Get the hell out.
Funny, that doesn't sound like something Ralph Wiggum would say.
Peter that was such a fail.
Hahaha but no, why so serious?
The thing about X-Men 3 was that Singer didn't direct. The thing about Spider-Man 3 was that execs basically forced Raimi to include Venom.
Most importantly, the thing about Nolan is that he has never made a "bad" movie. Not to mention the fact that besides Catwoman, most of the announced characters are pretty low-key.
Nolan's Batman is on a completely different level than any comic book hero film in existence.
BFD if it does somehow suck... It's Nolan's last ride with good old Bats and the first two films were so damn good, the next flick couldn't possibly detract the pure awesome we got from them.
I do believe in The Curse, obviously the 2 Joel Schumacher Batman sequels were proof of that. But that all really stems from the Joker Curse: Once you bust out the Joker, it's all downhill from there. The later Batman movies had to cobble together a bunch of third-tier Batman villains to add up to the impact of having one exciting, unpredictable character like the Joker. This is particularly an issue considering Nolan's dark n' gritty tone, which would clash with some of the goofier Batman villains.
How dare you call any of the Batman villains third tier! Batman has the best rogues gallery in all of comics. All of the Villains they've used in the films are interesting if they are written correctly. Even the ones Schumacher depicted.
I agree there are a plethora of unstable sociopaths to choose from in the Batman series. The way Nolans playing it the Joker might have been just a setup for what's to come
Falcone in Begins had no backstory yet he fit right into the story and was a well developed character. That takes care of Alberto cause the same can be done with him.
Ras, Talia, and Bane are one bundle. Bane is what Ras wanted Bruce to be. Bane is the perfect protege. Bane and Talia will lead the league back into Gotham. They're backstory will need to be revealed through scenes and their interaction
Cat Woman will be more of a side annoyance and a curiosity for Batman. She is a thief and doesnt require time for a separate backstory. Her past will be revealed by the way she interacts with Batman
See. I solved all your worries.
Has Brett Ratner changed his name to Christopher Nolan?
Relax.
Everyone has a valid point in the fact that Alberto Falcone has not been confirmed as the Holiday Killer, we have still yet to see what the confirmation will be for it, even though Nolan is drawing all (and i mean all) ideas from the Lazarus Pits arch, which means yes Falcone can end up like that but at this point it really is just speculation. And as for catwoman being a villian,eh, again, not 100% yet. And should we forget the Talia al Ghul still has yet to be cast. So thus far I've only seen a good casting for an incredible movie
Lest we forget, why so serious
Your critique overlooks the following key fact: as with the first two movies, this one will be borrowing heavily from widely acclaimed Batman graphic novels, such as The Long Halloween, Year One, etc. In those stories, the wide array of villains is both required and adequately balanced. Catwoman's role in Long Halloween, for example, would not at all make her an obtrusive character in the story. If Nolan were writing the script *entirely* on his own, that would definitely raise the cause for worry. But, in all three cases, his source material has been superb, and properly constraining.
Really though, you have to ask how insightful a writeup like this can be when he compares Nolan's previous Batman works to a film like "Boot Camp Boys 3"
However I would agree that there will be people underwelmed after this film. The Dark Knight was way over hyped. Great film but way over hyped. The expectations people have for this film are going to be too difficult to overcome. Which is a pity because it's most likely going to be a good film. But that's the nature of fanboys. Go out of your way to not like a film because it wasn't done ENTIRELY like you would want.
But what's great about that, is that every other fanboy has a different opinion of what would work best.
I don't think he was comparing Batman Begins/Dark Knight to Boot Camp Boys 3--I think he was saying he's worried the third one could be like Boot Camp Boys 3, the way Spiderman 3 and X-Men 3 kind of were...
this site is hipster shit.
It used to be. Now it looks like Ain't It Cool News or some crap.
Point is, you're making too many assumptions about how the character dynamics will play out, and how significant they're involvement will be.
The way Joker and Two Face interwove in TDK has never been portrayed in any comic. Yet prior to seeing that dynamic play out, you could have easily said there would be no time to develop Harvey Dent, The Joker, and Maroni into complex nuanced characters and stuff them into the same film.
Yet it was done...and it was done with finesse. So chill, Nolan got this.
Here's my take. I get what the article is saying, but obviously everything is pure speculation now - regarding how the story will lay out. For instance, and this is MY speculation. I think that in the beginning of TDKR, you will see Falcone just as he is - not as they Holiday Killer - or perhaps he was in the backstory of the movie, but not IN the actual movie. I think Bane is his right hand man. Eventually, Talia comes to make a deal with Falcone/Bane to rule Gotham. However, she doublecrosses him, but still keeps Bane on as HER right hand. I don't think Selina Kyle - who will REMAIN Selina Kyle until the end - shows up until the 2nd act. She becomes a love interest at first for Bruce Wayne, but then becomes more interested in Batman (kind of like Batman Returns), and decides to join him as Catwoman right at the end to fight Talia/Bane.
Now, that's just MY speculation. However, if that were true, that wouldn't be TOO many villians, but just the right blend. I think the majority of the battle will be between Talia/Bane & Batman. I think Falcone will end up being a secondary character and Selina will spend the majority of the movie as the love interest.
I think where it gets ridiculous is the rumors that Hugo Strange is also going to be in it. THAT would be too much...
Regardless, I do find myself wondering if TDKR can top - or at least remain as good - as TDK. I'm very interested to find out. But I have total faith in Nolan because I think his vision and the way that he has crafted the 1st 2 movies will lead to a very good 3rd. I can, in no way, see TDKR as a disaster...
Howdy! Why so serious?
You know what I find funny? The fact that you don't think Chris Nolan has seen or heard of Spider-Man 3 or X-Men: Last Stand. I'm quite sure he's very aware of the fact that to many villains stuffed in a movie will ultimately sabotage the whole thing. What I advise everyone to do is to just sit back, let Nolan do his thing and amaze us again like he always has.
I can't wait to come back here and watch you kiss Nolan's shoes in recantation...
Sorry, not to get all Bat-geeky, but you saying that because Alberto Falcone is in the movie means the Holiday Killer is in movie doesn't make sense. Harvey Dent's wife Gilda and a much-debated-but-never-revealed other character were commiting the Holiday killings. Alberto was NOT Holiday.
Na na na na na na na na BATMAN!!!
What I'd really like to know is why is everyone so serious?
Sincerely,
The King of the Comments
Why so tender?
Hehs
140 minutes then 152, bump it up to an even 3 hours with this one and he can fit all the villains/story-lines he wants (and use up any cool action/gadget ideas he couldn't fit in the first two films)
Villains do not need a backstory. See: Boba Fett, shark from Jaws, Predator
Christopher Nolan's Films (Yes, all of them) SUCK. He is a no talent hack. This movie will blow hard just like all the others
NolanSucksIt is sadly too seriously correct, if overtrolling the case. Nolan's films I've seen, very much including the Batman films, have been pompous bores so far. Burton's weren't great, but at least had some wit about them. Nolan's don't chew as hard as the Shoemaker's (new Batman film villain), but to pretend that either of the Nolan films augur for a good or disappointing third ain't an anxiety I share.
I'd like to see what a Charlie Kaufman-scripted Batman film might look like...
To the author: I hope these early concerns of yours are thwarted with the actual casting news from WB last week.
http://www.batmanytb.com/news.php?readmore=1306
Well, the X-Men movies proved that if you dilute the screen with too many characters, it's impossible to develop any of them to a satisfactory level. Batman Begins stripped away all the camp crap from the Joel Schumacher Batman movies and that's why it worked so well. Now Nolan seems to adding too much stuff now and ruining the recipe that worked so well first time out. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I totally agree with this article, and I actually think Nolan is very overrated. Batman Begins was good but kind of boring for a Batman movie (nobody needs an origin that long, especially when most people know the origin already), and TDK was a decent movie that was made great by Ledger.
I was hoping the last Batman movie would actually focus on....wait, what's that guy's name again.....oh yea.....BATMAN! In two movies, the coolest thing he's done so far is get lit on fire and tossed out a window by Scarecrow lol.
And I don't think Inception was all that great either, as far as dream movies go I think Eternal Sunshine was a billion times better. I don't hate Nolan or anything, I just don't understand why everyone thinks he's such an amazing genius.
Can't wait for this movie to come out! Nolan is amazing. (:
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"Right now, Catwoman, Bane, Ra's al Ghul, and the Holiday Killer are all confirmed roles in The Dark Knight Rises. "
Wait? The Holiday Killer? Where did you hear that? Or did you just make that up?
The reason I have faith in Nolan's TDKR is because at first, Nolan didn't want to do it. He knew he couldn't top TDK "how many good third films in a franchise can people name?", he's words. Until.... he and the co writers came up with a story line that excited him. So yeah, it should kick ass. Even if the over-anticipation kills it.
you are wrong and the film will be good.
Nolan is for me like José Mourinho in football,very good and very professional.
For me they are two same people but in a different line of work.
They don't do this for the money,they are doing because they know that every time they can do better.
The Holiday Killer, according to comic books and specifically "The Long Halloween", is Gilda Dent and Harvey Dent (he becomes two-face during this story arc).