Words fail. I am in Louisiana, but my thoughts and prayers are in NYC and DC.

Months ago I chatted with someone on Nerve's Instant Gratifier, a playwright in NYC, named Sal. I don't recall what name he used with his ad, so all I can do is pray he is all right.

I take some comfort in the thought that the attack has made its own re-execution almost impossible. This is not simply, or even primarily, because of the enhancements in security the attacks induced. Instead, the attacks have eliminated the incentive to cooperate with hijackers. If you assume your attackers want money or political leverage, cooperation seems prudent. Once you know that they intend for everyone on your plane to die and in the process kill many other people, resistance through every means becomes desirable. The passengers on the two downed planes that did not strike the World Trade Center appear to have learned of the WTC strikes, anticipated their own deaths, resisted their hijackers, and possibly minimized the damage their planes caused. Their resistance is a testament to them and to human nature. It also attests to the fragility of a scheme that relied on its victims' inability to conceive of its atrocity.

One of the previous writers was correct; we would do well to praise those victims who rebelled against the hijackers.

Unlike the IRA or even the PLO, the terrorists in this case - as well as the states that sponsor them - are not after anything we can give them. Not ransom. Not recognition. Not a state.

Instead, they are after the eradication of a culture that produces luxury goods for our own pleasure, that allows women to hold jobs and educate themselves and sleep with whomever they choose, that allows happiness and wealth to be spread to a larger proportion of the society than in any other culture.

For all our flaws, no equivocation can exist here: our values as well as our lives are under attack. We must learn from those who had the bravery to fight off their hijackers.

I think my friends and fellow New Yorkers who died on Tuesday would agree.

There are many things that could and should be said, including how the amazing response of New Yorkers brought all Americans closer to that city, even those of us who have never been there.

The saddest thought when looking at the global situation, then comparing it to Nerve's subject matter, is that human beings have so many ways to hurt each other, and at the same time so many ways to give each other incredible pleasure. Yet, so often, they prefer to hurt. I think that's why I visit Nerve every day, to see that there are people committed to pleasure, and sex that is wild but spiritual.

-- exangelus

It has been a difficult time. As a Newfoundlander and a Canadian, I have been so busy with the stranded passengers that I've hardly had time to think about response. I am afraid, afraid that we will be blinded by our rage, and in that blindness we will sink to as low a level as the people that committed these horrible acts.
We need to fight giving in to that blindness. Terrorists feel this blinding anger, and feel justified in their actions, even if they're not. Our response at this time will say a lot about who we are, and what we truly believe.

I never thought that when I signed up for the Marine Corps Reserve when I was 17 that some day, I would be called upon to defend America's soil. I am so proud of how Americans have come together in the wake of this tragedy. I am proud of the support I have recieved from those around me. America, I speak for the entire Marine Corps, we will make this right. We will make those who did this and those who support them PAY! I promise you, we take this attack very personally. And the United States Mititary stands ready like an attack dog at the end of our leash. All we need is the word.

Contact wanted with alien beings for transfer to safe planet !

The best I can expect from this is an increased sense of unity in this country -- we are all Americans and we're in this together -- black brown and white, Christian Jew Muslim and whatever else.
The worst is a brutal reaction by our government that kills more innocent people and motivates more terror. We need wisdom now.

While driving 500 miles to return to my home, I decided to listen to talk radio today. I just didn't feel ready to "sing along" with the oldies. What I heard was appalling. The level of ignorance in this country about who Muslims are and what they believe could lead to more Arab Americans getting hurt, or worse yet, killed. I would not want to be a practicing Muslim in this country right now, or for the foreseeable future. The people behind this attack should be referred to as terrorists only, not Muslims. They do not represent the religion as practiced by most. Just as many American Christians are appalled by our fundamentalists (you know, they shoot doctors who perform abortions...), most Arab Americans are just as appalled by the Islamic variety of fundamentalism. Please, lets see some real education from our government, from our media. All Americans have come here to seek freedom, and in the case of the earliest Americans, religious freedom. Muslims deserve the right to practice thier religion without fear of violent repercussions.

Hey folks: Please read the ideas on this website regarding our current dilemma, especially the
Noam Chomsky links. Let's pray that our country's leadership acts wisely.

Peace.

http://www.zmag.org/reactionscalam.htm

living in Ireland,and having to endure terrorists attacks for 25years,Omagh being the last one.America is starting to wake up [in the most horrific way]to what happens when you fund murderers[who claim to have a good cause].So please allyou Americans of Irish descent,think before you send more cash to IRA,and say thats enough killing..stop.The IRA is helping to train FARC terrorists in colombia,who in turn are killing YOUR KIDS with drugs.This how we will defeat terrorism by cutting off their money supply.
God bless America

All I keep thinking is "Stop the ride, I want off now."

Even here in Montreal, watching everything unfold on television, I felt, for the first time in my life, physically ill based on something I was seeing.

It's funny, but watching TV now that the schedule is returning to normal, all the ads seem strangly ironic.

Bonjour,
Je suis Fran

Here's a question I haven't heard yet: Why are these Arabs so fuckin' pissed at us? Could it have anything to do with US policy in the Middle East? Could it have anything to do with kings, princes and wealthy nations supported by the US living next door to disease, hunger and poverty in other nations? Could it have to do with US military defending uneven distribution of oil wealth in the Middle East? Could it have anything to do with sending millions of dollars of US weapons every year to one side of a conflict? Could it have anything to do with unconditional US political and military support for Israel? Obviously, flying planes into buildings and killing people is wrong. Those responsible should pay. But it is obvious to me that we need to make peace with the Arabs. We need to review our policy in the Middle East. We need to put our money where our mouth is. If we say America is on the side of justice and defends the well being of the People of the World, then we need to back that up with corresponding policy.

I am still shocked and saddened by last week's events. I am avoiding anger because it gets nothing done. All I can do is hope that the Bush goes about this the right way. My thoughts and prayers for all the people who lost loved ones in this incident.

A terrible tragedy, in a world blighted by such. As a journalist and soldier I've seen a few. Rwanda, the Congo, South Africa. Afghanistan itself has suffered 22 years of brutal civil war.
The "open letter to the terrorist" posted here is probably understandable in this time of anger, but sickening in its condolence of "nuclear war as proof of America's resolve".
Nothing would please Bin Laden more than such naked blood-lust. Tens of thousands of people incinerated in a nuclear holocaust is no cause for pride. It is little better than indiscriminate terrorism.
Let's not be stripped of your humanity. If Americans are guilty of anything it's perhaps an unconcern for others' suffering. Especially if they live far away, in poverty, darkness and disease.
This is an opportunity for America to reach out to the world, and gain the high ground, morally and militarily.
As humans we share every suffering. Let humanism be our guide.

As I have friends and relatives who are American and as I have vactioned there many times I just wish to express my disgust at the cowardly attack on the citizens of New York and Washington. The destruction of those wonderful buildings
and the heartless taking of so many innocent peoples lives,including UK citizens and others,is to my mind worse than the evil attack on Pearl Harbour,that was against a military base. I hope and pray the fiends who planned and carried out this cowardly attack get the same treatment the
Americans dished out to those who attacked Pearl Harbour.

God Bless America.

BAW -- there is little doubt that force is required ... we should clearly go in and wipe out bin laden's network and anyone who tries to stop us in the process. but that is more of a surgical extraction than a war (even if we take out the Taliban in the process) and its only half the solution: simultaneously we need to make overtures to moderate and followers of islam, communicating that we mean them no harm and would like to help encourage peace and prosperity in their region. and, like the rest of the civilized world, we need to put pressure on israel to be less extreme in their treatment of the palestinians ... Sure, we need to be ruthless with terrorists but at the same time we must realize that the middle east is a bomb that needs to be defused ... broadcasting our cowboy president talkin' 'bout kickin the butt of EVIL is not exactly a bomb defusing gesture ... a friend of mine was in Africa during all this and was shocked and terrified by the quantity of international hatred of the united states she encountered ... we as a nation have chosen to ignore this broader international context and the future risks of such ignorance are enormous ...

WAR is what i scream!!!!!! Love your country or parish. Blood has been shed. Everyone says peace lets not fight. War is peace. We will go to war so your peace can remain. We r The UNITED States of America and we will fight back!!!!!!!!

It's amazing how quickly everyone has become foreign policy experts in this country. I can't say that I am immune to such soap-box speeches, though I at least have a background in European and Middle Eastern History.

One thing is clear: the United States is going to war. Whether this action will solve the problem of terrorism is irrelivant; the United States must take this step if it is to assert its position as a world power. Were we not to do so, the American people would be forced to view America as something less than it is. Unfortunately, this war (if conducted solely as a military action/criminal investigation) is likely to last a long time and be very costly, since terrorism can never truly be completely stamped out.

A cheaper and more effective alternative (or addendum) to military action is to prove to those who would hurt us that it is better to be our friend than our enemy. This practice has been borne out in past practice. In the second World War, American military might defeated Germany. However, Germany was not conquered by tanks or planes, rather, it was conquered by GIs giving their Hershey bars to little children. Germany was conquered during the Berlin Airlift. Germany was conquered by massive American investment in their economy through the famous Marshall plan. Now, Germany is one of our staunchest allies - going so far as to offering a staging area for our current military plans.

Germany is not the only example: we have carried out our "dollar diplomacy" with many other countries such as Japan, Turkey, Greece, Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. In each case, these diplomatic relations have all yielded some degree of positive result. We would be foolish to turn our back on such a successful practice now.

Hell, you're not even the NYPost. Stick to the erotica.

Alright, don't attack me for this one, but please... try to be happy. Live life, love life. I wrote a little blurb about this in my livejournal if you need some nice thoughts to cheer you up: http://www.livejournal.com/~revmitcz

For your consideration

Radical Islam At War With America
Tuesday, September 18, 2001
By Fred Siegel

The issue is not Israel. Usama bin Laden blew up a U.S. embassy when the Oslo "peace process" was at the height of its "success." The issue is the inability of Islamic regimes around the globe to come to grips with the modern world.

i'm so sad i feel ill.

I received this unsolicited email and thought it provided a worthwhile and new perspective on recent events...
Peace.
From: Amnesty International [AmnestyOnline@clickaction.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 4:56 AM
To: all
Subject: Special Message from Bill Schulz, Executive Director of Amnesty
International USA

September 17, 2001

A message to members and supporters of Amnesty International from Bill Schulz, Executive Director of Amnesty International USA:

Sometimes death comes in the dark, in the dead of night. But not this time. This time the day could not have been brighter or more beautiful.

Sometimes death comes when we are by ourselves. But not this time. This time it came to those who were surrounded by friends and colleagues.

Sometimes death comes on a battlefield or in a prison cell. But not this time. This time it came in commercial airplanes and pleasant office buildings.

And sometimes death comes after a long struggle and much anticipation. But not this time. This time it came in an instant. And it appears to have swept in its wake family members of our staff and volunteers, friends of members of our Board and doubtless a good many Amnesty International members themselves.

Now that it has, you and I have work to do. Not the kind of work that sorts through rubble or loads up body bags, thank God. Those who do that work deserve a thousand tears of gratitude. Our work is of a different order but just as important nonetheless. The work of anger, to be sure, but an anger tempered by wisdom. The work of grieving, absolutely, but a grieving that pays homage to suffering. And the work of justice, no question about it, but a justice of which every one of us can be proud.

To get to grieving, we must go through anger. And to get to justice, we must go through grieving. Because, as the theologian Sam Keen so eloquently put it, "Every day we are not mourning is a day we will be taking vengeance" and vengeance is different from justice.

Those who died on September 11 represent the best that is in us as human beings, as citizens and as a people. The best that is in us knows that individuals are responsible for this crime -- not anonymous masses of people. The best that is in us knows that the guilty deserve to be punished -- not those who share their names or their language, their skin color or their religion. It knows that blind hatred corrupts the hater. It knows that the greatest power evil has is to entice the innocent to mimic its practices. It knows that every action has unintended consequences. It knows that the truly strong never forget that in the heart of every stranger lurks a reflection of our own.

Those who died on September 11 represent the best that is in us, the calling of our highest selves. We owe them anger; we owe them grieving; we owe them justice. But everything that we do now must reflect the best, not the lowest, of our humanity. We pay those precious souls their rightful tribute only by leveling a wise justice, only by exhibiting a tender righteousness. We pay them tribute only by understanding what brought about their deaths and hewing to those principles that call us to a more abundant life.

Toward those ends, Amnesty International will mourn the victims; we will speak out against impunity for the perpetrators; we will demand that those innocent of crimes be protected and respected; and we will insist that justice is not justice if it fails to adhere to international human rights norms. Both the International Secretariat of Amnesty International and we in AIUSA have appointed Crisis Response Teams to work together in a coordinated, unified response to this tragedy and its aftermath. We will be determining as soon as possible how best our membership can help advance our common goals.

For death has come in an instant. And now there is work to be done.

--Bill Schulz,
Executive Director

****************
This message is being distributed to as many Amnesty International members and supporters as possible. We apologize if you have received more than one copy.

One more thing: A NY Times reader in Australia asked some thought provoking questions, "Did the United Kingdom bomb the New York and Boston Irish for harboring and financing the IRA terrorists? Do you realize that to the world your Christian fundamentalists are just as scary? Even your politicians claim God as theirs. Other English-speaking democracies believe in the separation of the powers of judiciary, religion and legislation."

ITS UNFORTUNATE BUT IT SEEMS THAT WAR AND KILLING IS AN UNAVOIDABLE ASPECT OF HUMANITY. WE AS HUMANS ARE THE ONLY LIVING CREATURES THAT ASSIGN RIGHT AND WRONG TO THE ACTIONS OF OTHERS. BECAUSE WE HAVE IMPOSED THIS SET OF RULES ONTO THE NATURAL WORLD IT IS UP TO US TO POLICE OURSELVES. THERE IS NO WAY TO HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER, IT IS A BALANCE THAT WE NEED TO ACHIEVE. PEACE AND WAR TEND TO DEPEND ON EACH OTHER. IT IS HOW THEY ARE APPLIED AND USED THAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE. WHAT WAS YOUR COINTRIBUTION TO LIFE BEFORE YOUR SUDDEN AND VIOLENT WAKE UP TO THE RTEALITY OF YOUR SUROUNDINGS?

For consideration:

Game Over
by Naomi Klein

Now is the time in the game of war when we dehumanize our enemies.
They are utterly incomprehensible, their acts unimaginable, their
motivations senseless. They are "madmen" and their states are "rogue."
Now is not the time for more understanding--just better intelligence. These
are the rules of the war game. Feeling people will no doubt object to this
characterization: war is not a game. It is real lives ripped in half; it is
lost sons, daughters, mothers, and fathers, each with a dignified story.
Tuesday's act of terror was reality of the harshest kind, an act that makes
all other acts seem suddenly frivolous, game-like.
It's true: war is most emphatically not a game. And perhaps after Tuesday,
it will never again be treated as one. Perhaps September 11, 2001 will mark
the end of the shameful era of the video game war.
Watching the coverage on Tuesday was a stark contrast to the last time I sat
glued to a television set watching a real-time war on CNN. The Space Invader
battlefield of the Gulf War had almost nothing in common with what we have
seen this week. Back then, instead of real buildings exploding over and over
again, we saw only sterile bomb's-eye-views of concrete targets--there and
then gone. Who was in these abstract polygons? We never found out.
Since the Gulf War, American foreign policy has been based on a single
brutal fiction: that the U.S. military can intervene in conflicts around the
world--in Iraq, Kosovo, Israel--without suffering any U.S. casualties. This
is a country that has come to believe in the ultimate oxymoron: a safe war.
The safe war logic is, of course, based on the technological ability to wage
a war exclusively from the air. But it also relies on the deep conviction
that no one would dare mess with the U.S.--the one remaining superpower--on
its own soil.
This conviction has, until Tuesday, allowed Americans to remain blithely
unaffected by--even uninterested in--international conflicts in which they
are key protagonists. Americans don't get daily coverage on CNN of the
ongoing bombings in Iraq, nor are they treated to human-interest stories on
the devastating effects of economic sanctions on that country's children.
After the 1998 bombing of a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan (mistaken for a
chemical weapons facility), there weren't too many follow up reports about
what the loss of vaccine manufacturing did to disease prevention in the
region.
And when NATO bombed civilian targets in Kosovo--including markets,
hospitals, refugee convoys, passenger trains, and a TV station--NBC didn't
do "streeter" interviews with survivors about how shocked they were by the
indiscriminate destruction.
The United States has become expert in the art of sanitizing and
dehumanizing acts of war committed elsewhere. Domestically, war is no longer
a national obsession, it's a business that is now largely out-sourced to
experts. This is one of the country's many paradoxes: though the engine of
globalization around the world, the nation has never been more inward
looking, less worldly.
No wonder Tuesday's attack, in addition to being horrifying beyond
description, has the added horror of seeming, to many Americans, to have
arrived entirely out of the blue. Wars rarely come as a complete shock to
the country under attack but it's fair to say that this one did. On CNN, USA
Today reported Mike Walter was asked to sum up the reaction on the street.
What he said was: "Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, I just can't believe
it."
The idea that one could ever be prepared for such inhuman terror is absurd.
However, viewed through the U.S. television networks, Tuesday's attack
seemed to come less from another country than another planet. The events
were reported not so much by journalists as by the new breed of brand-name
celebrity anchors who have made countless cameos in TimeWarner movies about
apocalyptic terrorist attacks on the United States--now, incongruously
reporting on the real thing.
The United States is a country that believed itself not just at peace but
war-proof, a self-perception that would come as quite a surprise to most
Iraqis, Palestinians and Colombians. Like an amnesiac, the U.S. has woken up
in the middle of a war, only to find out it has been going on for years.
Did the United States deserve to be attacked? Of course not. That argument
is ugly and dangerous. But here's a different question that must be asked:
did U.S. foreign policy create the conditions in which such twisted logic
could flourish, a war not so much on U.S. imperialism but on perceived U.S.
imperviousness?
The era of the video game war in which the U.S. is always at the controls
has produced a blinding rage in many parts of the world, a rage at the
persistent asymmetry of suffering. This is the context in which twisted
revenge seekers make no other demand than that American citizens share their
pain.
Since the attack, U.S. politicians and commentators have repeated the mantra
that the country will go on with business as usual. The American way of
life, they insist, will not be interrupted. It seems an odd claim to make
when all evidence points to the contrary. War, to butcher a phrase from the
old Gulf War days, is the mother of all interruptions. As well it should be.
The illusion of war without casualties has been forever shattered.
A blinking message is up on our collective video game console: Game Over.

to sj - perhaps we who contribute to this discussion group fear for our "eros" - not wishing the "thanto(s)" leaders of the world to curtail the opportunity to do so.

In response to GWB's remarks below: I have lived in the US for the last 12 years, and I find many admirable things about this country and its philosophy. Among them, the idea that one should take the high road and never descend to the level of ones enemies. But here, GWB suggest that we become savages to rid the world of savagery. The density of irony in that statement is unbearable. Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor of Tikkun, has written a short piece on the source of violence: http://www.pcusa.org/pcnews/01333.htm

Savagery is returned with savagery. Who will be brave enough to refuse to descend into the darkest behaviors of humans?

What was your contribution to life before you woke up.

For consideration:We were still reeling from the Bush lexicon. Now here comes the
>Warnacular. In less than a week, many familiar terms have taken on new
>meanings. Here's a partial list:
>
>The United States = "America"
>
>America = "the Civilized World."
>
>An attack on the World Trade Towers and the Pentagon has become an
>attack on the American "way of life."
>
>Anyone who hates America hates freedom and democracy. Why might someone
>be motivated to carry out last week's attacks? "Obviously he's filled
>with hate for the United States and for everything we stand for...
>freedom and democracy," Vice President Dick Cheney told Tim Russert on
>Sunday's "Meet The Press." He went on, "It must have something to do
>with his background, his own upbringing." Nothing to do with U.S.
>policy. Cheney wants us to believe that parents are to blame.
>
>Speaking of democracy. Democracy, these days = Bipartisanship. What does
>bipartisanship mean? Why, Democrats agree to everything Republicans
>want, of course. It's unanimous when the vote is 420 to 1 and that one
>is a an African-American female from the peacenik Bay Area.
>
>Allies are states that support the U.S. president no matter how
>unilaterally he acts. Will critics of the U.S.A. be called racist or
>anti-Semitic? Probably that comes next. But we're getting ahead of
>ourselves.
>
>The biggest news this week is that patriotism has become holding on to,
>or better yet, buying stock. Anyone who sells on New York's newly
>reopened trading floor, is "betting against America," says Richard
>Grasso, chairman of the New York Stock Exchange and a chorus of newly
>dubbed "civic leaders" (which is to say brokers and corporate
>executives, Warren Buffett et al.,) agree.
>
>What will make us safer? Security comes from permitting the FBI into our
>phone conversations and releasing the CIA to work with "unsavory
>characters," yeah, even human rights abusers and possibly terrorists.
>It's worked so well in the past. For safety's sake, the U.S. must "not
>rule out", as John McCain of the Senate Armed Services Committee put
>it, the possibility of using nuclear weapons against any country at any
>time.
>
>If we the people let it happen, "War Powers" will become the power to
>get the media to declare that we are in a war. Grief will have become a
>cry for killing.
>
>Normalcy (which has entirely replaced normality for some reason) will be
>all we long for. And Normalcy, it seems, is to carry on doing exactly
>what we did before. Exactly what got us here.

I had just joined nerve a few weeks before September 11. And thought this is nice little diversion from life and work.

Now, after reading the comments on this page, I realize that to some of you, this is much more.

The comments on here are unreal. I have never read such a bunch of bullshit in my life. Unless I have read the bullshit lies you tell about yourselves on here.

You have come up with a myriad of ways that we have brought this attack upon ourselves. That the policy of America or our history as a country has somehow justified these actions.

To you I say: FUCK OFF AND GET A LIFE. LIVE YOUR LIFE AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THAT IS, IN PART, THE LESSON HERE. SAY AND DO THE THINGS IN THE REAL WORLD..
I am glad there is such diversity of ideas that can be expressed here. And, that is what this is about. Those of you that love America. And, those of you that hate America.

People are dead. Lives are shattered. Forever changed.

Talk about the people who risked and gave there lives to save others. Talk about your family and friends that didn't get out. Talk about the ones that did.

On September 11, My apartment was the meeting place for my brother who was across the street from the towers and the cousin at 7 wtc watching 1 wtc where his son was on 102. This is real.

Seeing the firefighters who lost their friends and "brothers". The ultimate saddness on their faces that are broken by an occassional nervous laugh. This is real.

The police and their losses and all the rest of who ran in.

Would you have tried to save another? or your laptop?

I live with guilt of wishing I could have done more than just be there for my family and friends. Somehow loading a few trucks and trying to giving blood, just doesn't seem like enough. I have acted in ways and felt emotions I am not very proud of. In other ways, I did all right.

The thing I find most offensive is that most of the people who join nerve, do so to meet people and get laid. Straight to the point. No bullshit. The remarks on here only prove that most of you are bullshit artists living a life on the internet you couldn't possibly live "offline".

If this is the place for you to rail against America. Do so. Its a free country. Just remember that part about it.

If the remarks make no sense...Its just the emotion of the times.

to SB -- I do not hate America. Nothing justifies the acts of Sept 11. Please understand that when you say "I live with guilt of wishing I could have done more than just be there for my family and friends," I am feeling a similar guilt. I feel guilty that I did not do enough ahead of time to stop the hatred that motivated these acts; I did not do enough in this world to promote the ideals upon which America is founded. Instead I sat around being the loud-mouthed, fat, rich asshole most of the world (including our "new" allies) considers me to be. I know that many countries also see the value of some of what we do. But more times than I care to think about I have experienced the bad attitudes left in the wake of fellow American tourists. But back to my point. Democracy is about finding the path that incorporates the viewpoints of all of its members. I am trying to listen to what you believe to be right (your views are shared by several people very close to me). All I ask is that you listen to what I believe. There is enough grief and pain out there right now. Are you really helping it by yelling at me and others like me? Is it going to make things better for those who are suffering directly for you to be so angry at me? Yep, it's a free place, and the responsibility we bear for that is to be strong enough to contain our emotions and to THINK together. We are all at the table, don't ask me to leave because you don't like what I have to say.

Hear, hear, sej!

SB - The events of September 11th were undeniably atrocities of horrific proportions. I believe no one in this discussion would
argue otherwise. Your pain, suffering, and horror is real and immediate. I also mourn for such senseless loss of innocent lives and
wish to find justice and meaning in these violent times. Yet I will not elevate my pain and loss over all the others that have occurred
around this world, directly resulting from US foreign policy. This is the "real" world you speak of. When mr. Bush says we will
attack any and all who harbor or abet those responsible, do we disregard the hard cruel fact that bin Laden is a "blowback" - a
term the CIA uses to describe a covert operation that goes bad, turning against it's creators? Was it OK to endorse terrorist attacks against the soviets? I do not hate my country - I deplore
(and will no longer accept) any act of terror. - The freedom fighter/terrorist - action/reaction binary is circular and spiraling all humankind into destruction.

To all. Please keep in mind that all of us, those that believe in freedom of sexuality, the right to read this very publication, female as well as male sexuality, freedom of sexual orientation, etc., etc., etc., would be executed for these beliefs and/or actions in the worldwide islamic state envisioned by those that performed this act. They hate us and will see our destruction if they can.

what do you propose klf?
in the course of war there is always a victor and a vanquished. modern war has changed things, but defending our interests , does not operate in a vacuum..

do you think mullah mohammed or bin laden would be open to a friendly discussion?
that our enlightened bourgeouis ideals would give them pause?
our enemies our savage, they are forged in war and will be destroyed in war.

interesting thoughts about "haboring" terrorists....several people have mentioned the idea of punishing those that allow or support terrorism through inaction as being ridiculous...that they shouldn't be punished for others actions - the actions of the few

We speak of punishment and the price to be paid by civilians
We mention Japan and the civilian residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the residents of Germany who perished in bombing raids....

Like it or not, the power to stop aggression and terrorism lies not within the hands of the US and our armed forces, but within those of the Muslims of the middle east...

The people of Germany and Japan ALLOWED the war effort to continue, just as the residents of some Middle Eastern countries are ALLOWING terrorists to operate from within their borders.
Just as with JApan and Germany, this war is not secret and the activities of these people are well known....

Japan and Germany fell when the price paid for ALLOWING this to occur became too great - economically and across both civilian and military lines, yes we killed civilians, yes "innocent" people died.

The same will be true for those that harbor terrorists...
They must recognize that the price is too large to allow fanatics who would wipe the world clean of non-Muslims (does anyone here not read "master race / religion" here!)
to wage war on the free world.

Likely civilians will die, children will die, soldiers will die, cities will be destroyed....

I am saddened by this, but if anyone else can get the message across that Islam is not the "master religion" and it ISN'T ok to slaughter people because of your beliefs without the loss of anymore lives I'm all ears...

Some of these groups have stated until America ceases to be and the world is cleansed of "infidels" they will not stop the attacks and the slaughter....sounds to me like "turning the other cheek" is an incredibly poor idea....

As horrific as the attack is, I am now wondering, should we start hording stockings???

hi sej
well i think its fairly clear who is behind this
who else could it be? its clear bin laden and militant radicals are behind it.
as far as our enemies, i live in new york city, i dont hate any race as a whole, i have friends and co workers of all nationalities, so when i say 'they' i dont mean arabs or all middle easterners, i mean our enemies, they are those who would wish to destroy my city, my country, and my way of life. not to mention kill anyone who stands in their way. but the nature of the guerrilla is to attack then hide, if they are so valiant why not stand up and at least take credit for this attack, the true nature of them is being revealed, and i hope we destroy all who were involved, no matter how long it takes.
do you know that egypt receives a large amount of us money?
so perhaps those people who hate america should rally there goverments to stop receiving our foreign aid.
this is not a war on islam, muslims i know detest these radicals the same way any moderate thinkers do.
as for not coming to this country? they arrested several people in new jersey who were affiliated and they all worked over here, not to mention the multiple store owners ive seen gloating over the events. such is the cost of freedom.

The United States and Middle East:
Why Do "They" Hate Us?

By Stephen R. Shalom

The list below presents specific incidents of U.S. policy in the Middle East. The list minimizes the grievances against the United States in the region because it excludes more generalized long-standing policies, such as U.S. backing for authoritarian regimes (arming Saudi Arabia, training the secret police in Iran under the Shah, providing arms and aid to Turkey as it ruthlessly attacked Kurdish villages, etc.) The list also excludes actions of Israel in which the United States is indirectly implicated because Israel has been the leading or second-ranking recipient of U.S. aid for many years and has received U.S. high-tech weaponry and the diplomatic benefit of U.S. veto power in the Security Council.

1948: Israel established. U.S. declines to press Israel to allow expelled Palestinians to return.

1949: CIA backs military coup deposing elected government of Syria.

1953: CIA helps overthrow the democratically-elected Mossadeq government in Iran (which had nationalized the British oil company) leading to a quarter-century of repressive and dictatorial rule by the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi.

1956: U.S. cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt receives Eastern bloc arms.

1956: Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt. U.S. does not support invasion, but the involvement of its NATO allies severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region.

1958: U.S. troops land in Lebanon to preserve "stability".

early 1960s: U.S. unsuccessfully attempts assassination of Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.

1963: U.S. reported to gives Iraqi Ba'ath party (soon to be headed by Saddam Hussein) names of communists to murder, which they do with vigor.

1967-: U.S. blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC Resolution 242, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 war.

1970: Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and U.S. prepare to intervene on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO.

1972: U.S. blocks Sadat's efforts to reach a peace agreement with Egypt.

1973: U.S. military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt.

1973-75: U.S. supports Kurdish rebels in Iraq. When Iran reaches an agreement with Iraq in 1975 and seals the border, Iraq slaughters Kurds and U.S. denies them refuge. Kissinger secretly explains that "covert action should not be confused with missionary work."

1978-79: Iranians begin demonstrations against the Shah. U.S. tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him to act forcefully. Until the last minute, U.S. tries to organize military coup to save the Shah, but to no avail.

1979-88: U.S. begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before Soviet invasion in Dec. 1979. Over the next decade U.S. provides training and more than $3 billion in arms and aid.

1980-88: Iran-Iraq war. When Iraq invades Iran, the U.S. opposes any Security Council action to condemn the invasion. U.S. soon removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and allows U.S. arms to be transferred to Iraq. At the same time, U.S. lets Israel provide arms to Iran and in 1985 U.S. provides arms directly (though secretly) to Iran. U.S. provides intelligence information to Iraq. Iraq uses chemical weapons in 1984; U.S. restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. 1987 U.S. sends its navy into the Persian Gulf, taking Iraq's side; an overly-aggressive U.S. ship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290.

1981, 1986: U.S. holds military maneuvers off the coast of Libya in waters claimed by Libya with the clear purpose of provoking Qaddafi. In 1981, a Libyan plane fires a missile and two Libyan planes shot down. In 1986, Libya fires missiles that land far from any target and U.S. attacks Libyan patrol boats, killing 72, and shore installations. When a bomb goes off in a Berlin nightclub, killing two, the U.S. charges that Qaddafi was behind it (possibly true) and conducts major bombing raids in Libya, killing dozens of civilians, including Qaddafi's adopted daughter.

1982: U.S. gives "green light" to Israeli invasion of Lebanon, killing more than 10,000 civilians. U.S. chooses not to invoke its laws prohibiting Israeli use of U.S. weapons except in self-defense.

1983: U.S. troops sent to Lebanon as part of a multinational peacekeeping force; intervene on one side of a civil war. Withdraw after suicide bombing of marine barracks.

1984: U.S.-backed rebels in Afghanistan fire on civilian airliner.

1988: Saddam Hussein kills many thousands of his own Kurdish population and uses chemical weapons against them. The U.S. increases its economic ties to Iraq.

1990-91: U.S. rejects any diplomatic settlement of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait (for example, rebuffing any attempt to link the two regional occupations, of Kuwait and of Palestine). U.S. leads international coalition in war against Iraq. Civilian infrastructure targeted. To promote "stability" U.S. refuses to aid post-war uprisings by Shi'ites in the south and Kurds in the north, denying the rebels access to captured Iraqi weapons and refusing to prohibit Iraqi helicopter flights.

1991-: Devastating economic sanctions are imposed on Iraq. U.S. and Britain block all attempts to lift them. Hundreds of thousands die. Though Security Council had stated that sanctions were to be lifted once Saddam Hussein's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction were ended, Washington makes it known that the sanctions would remain as long as Saddam remains in power. Sanctions in fact strengthen Saddam's position. Asked about the horrendous human consequences of the sanctions, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright declares that "the price is worth it."

1993-: U.S. launches missile attack on Iraq, claiming self-defense against an alleged assassination attempt on former president Bush two months earlier.

1998: U.S. and U.K. bomb Iraq over the issue of weapons inspections, even though Security Council is just then meeting to discuss the matter.

1998: U.S. destroys factory producing half of Sudan's pharmaceutical supply, claiming retaliation for attacks on U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and that factory was involved in chemical warfare. U.S. later acknowledges there is no evidence for the chemical warfare charge.

Just a reminder: this is a place for Nerve readers to share YOUR thoughts, not to post long articles, however excellent. If you want to alert people to a good feature or essay, post the URL.

I don't consider myself having typical "anti-USA" feelings that some people have simply irrationally just because they "don't like the USA". But I have to admit that they don't like the USA mainly because of the role this country's been performing along centuries of history. And this is my only approach towards this question. After all, would be the US Government and lots of American famous people be so concerned about other problems around the world in "normal" circumstances? What about millions of people starving around the world along centuries without being the USA worried about that? I have to say, however, that I'm completely sorry about those lives that were wasted because of that stupid act against the Twin Towers. But I firmly believe that the USA don't have any rights to "leader" the so-called "free" world in a bloodbath that's about to happen within next hours. That's absolutely unfair and a complete lie because at least as far as I'm concerned I didn't authorize them to invade any country and kill any people despite of their religion and convictions. And, let's be plain, this is what's happening: the USA is trying to justify the gigantic cost of their military machine, and this kind of action they're intending to implement is a typical way to do that. Fortunately some people in the USA have the necessary equilibrium to admit that George W. Bush doesn't even know to make an ordinary speech let alone "leader" the western civilization against the "pagan" Muslims.

Bruce Springstein's city may be in ruins but mine is NOT. I live in NYC and have logistically been able to carry on my life pretty close to usual. Of course the intense fealings revolving around so huge a tradegy have change the course of my life, but I am back to work and life. The only slow down was the psycological effect. Even if the carnage is 8,000 deaths that is only 1/10% of the 8 million people who live in NYC. My city stumbled but moves on and now knows how strong we are.

All of the people that rationalize the events that took place on the 11th as retaliation for our global policies hates this country with a passion and therefore should leave. There is absolutely not one American policy that deserves what took place on the 11th. Not ONE of them and not all of them together! As I browsed this board, I was astounded by a sentiment of 'we deserved this'. Those that started their thoughts with 'this was tragic, but now let me list all of the reasons why we are so horrible' are so far left, they would make Fidel Castro cringe. Obviously, none of the people spewing this nonsense knew anybody in the buildings, because if you did you would not tell yourself the reason your friend or family member is dead, is because of our policies toward the Sudan-- Daddy, why did Uncle Jimmy have to die? Well son, our government has sanctions on Iraq, and therefore Jimmy got what was coming to him.

The real reason why this happened is because of an extreme jealousy and resentment toward us. They (They = these terrorists) hate our freedom. They hate the way we allow women equality. They hate that we enjoy our lives. That we are safe. And that we are happy. They hate, period. And New York represents the captial for all they hate.

Anytime another country is in need we bail them out. We give them the resources they need to pull out of their every crisis, and then they usually turn around and slap us in the face, much like a an ungrateful child. And this world is filled with so many ungrateful children: France, Austria, and Puerto Rico just to name a few.

No, I am not a flag-waving, "red-blooded" American. I am a liberal and understand fully that this country has many faults, and policies that are very problematic. But I also know that this is a compassionate country with compassionate citizens and with (some) compassionate leaders. We are never given credit for all the good things we do do, but are rather criticized to the fullest extent for not doing enough. Every country in crisis goes to one place- The USA.

Understand that what happened on the 11th is a threat to our way of life. Have you ever questioned your safety before two weeks ago? I never have. But as I sat and watched as some of my friends fell with the buildings, I knew everything had changed. The unimaginable happened. I've spent the last week attending memorial services for people whose lives were just starting out. Please stop saying 'we deserved this' because when you say 'we deserved this' you are saying they deserved this.

Rappel de mon message du 18/9/2001 : Bonjour, Je suis Fran

Everything that have been said before makes sense, but no act of violence makes any sense at all. The violence that the US elites may have brought to the rest of the world, is unfortunately nothing in comparison to the violence that the rest of the world inflicts on itself by way of its own racism, sexism and classism. No, the US is not innocent. And gun-loving, MTV watching, American Pie patronizing Americans are not acquitted of their responsibilities as citizens of the superpower, just because they don't know how to spell Kabul. The fact that we are all responsible for the massacre in New York, doesn't mean that we should allow a massacre in other parts of the world. Peace can only make sense in a community of equals. When religious zealots in the heartland ban abortion, persecute gays or despise Darwin; their colleagues in Iran, Pakistan or India are doing the same thing. The only reason why the US is not a military or a religious dictatorship is because it is a liberal society. The attack was not against George W. or The Establishment, it was against the separation of Church and State, birth control, Darwin, the Big Bang Theory, the Rule of Law, Affirmative Action and Free Speech among many. New York doesn't belong to the US, as the victims of 50 countries laid in the ruins of the WTC, reminded us. New York belongs to the world. If the US citizens are too weak or too corrupt (i.e. right wing) to defend liberalism, then the rest of the world should do it.
God has nothing to do with the massacres, because God does not exists. It is man (the male beast) that is responsible for this.

i appreciate living but have enough shame for our present and past wrongdoings to be waving a flag...and i'm a new yorker...chrisy...have we forgotton the black man drahhed nehind a car in the south a couple years back or the black man shot umteen times for drawing his wallet or the guy in prison for 25 years for selling acid at a dead concert or slavery or japanese internment camps or rodney king...and so on...we used to burn flags not too long ago

This section really has amazed me....some of you are in a dreamworld where we (the USA) could deal with this diplomatically. I have heard that theme over and over. Are we going to send these people through a sensitivity course? I think not. The extremist personality respects one thing: Force. They see the American Military as weak and lacking will, when ofcourse we all know it is politicians who pull the strings on our military. They scoff at the fact that we have not done anything substantial in response to Khobar Towers, U.S.S. Cole, Embassy Bombings...etc, etc. The dogs have in the past have stolen scraps from the table and now they have eaten our lunch. We ranted and raved about justice and tried diplomatically to bring these folks to justice in the past...all to no avail. There is only one thing that will satisfy these people: Pull all of our forces out of the middle east, stop support for Israel, and share our wealth with them. (By the way, we are the biggest contributor to Afghanistan, to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars) Yes, we give these people monetary aid, yet how do we know that it gets to the people. It usually doesn't. The leaders of these countries i.e. Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Ethiopia,etc, etc....do not give a flying fuck if food reaches the mouths of their people. For instance, if we dissolve the embargo on Iraq, they sell oil to buy more weapons in which to destroy us. Their people are fed propaganda (which some of you all heartily agree with) that it is the United States and the Jews fault for depriving them of food and money.

The last time we were attacked on our soil was Pearl Harbor. At that time in our history, the U.S. wanted to play the middle of the road in Europe. Much to the chagrin of England, we were still trading with both them and the Germans. The Japanese, however, felt our involvement was inevitable so they tried to take out our Pacific Fleet and our will in one fell swoop. It didn't work then and it won't work now.

For the people on this board....sleep tight and keep up the Anti-U.S. statements. Tear down your Che poster and replace it with an Osama one for all I care. Wake up tomorrow go teach/learn at the institutions of higher education that you undoubtably attend. My brothers/sisters and I in the Armed Forces and the silent majority in America will do the dirty work just like we have always done while you hold your card-board signs. Just think, in ten years you will sell out and be driving your Saab/BMW, sending your kids to private schools, voting Republican and living the American life you so readily detest now. That is if you can get a job besides flipping burgers with your English/Philosophy degree that your Pops paid 60-100 thousand for. Ain't life grand!!

to rw and others: No one deserves violent death. That being said, how dare you state that I didn't have loved ones in those buildings, how dare you state that I hate America. But how dare you imply that I don't have loved ones in other countries who have suffered and died because of what my country has done. How dare you say no one is thankful about American aid. But how dare you assume that they are also unclear about the huge resources we WASTE every day, every year. Ted Turner has BILLIONS of dollars to give to the UN, BILLIONS, while entire countries in Africa are being WIPED OUT by starvation and AIDS. And you want me to say in a blanket way that America is wonderful and can do no wrong, that no one has a good reason (besides jealousy) to hate us. If we cannot see the pain in this world, if we cannot stop it, if we are not at least working toward the day when our brothers and sisters are not suffering, then what are we (and I include myself here) but a bunch of big, stupid, unfeeling bullies. It is precisely because I feel the pain of those deaths in New York and DC so strongly that I must stand up and say - "No More". P.S. If you're Ted Turner's lawyer or publicist, I don't make enough in a year to make a big defamation law suit worth it

The WTC tragedy. The genocide in Rwanda. The firebombing of Dresden. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Napalm in Vietnam. Support for contras in El Salvador. The murder of Patrice Lumumba and Che Guevara. The Aids crisis in Africa. Mobutu Sese Seko. McCarthy. Nixon. Noriega. Iraqi civilians. Support for Jonas Savimbi. Propping up the Apartheid Regime in South Africa. Support for rightwing dictatorships in South America. The massacre in Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut. Ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia. 22 years of civil war in Afghanistan. 35 years of civil war in Angola.

(The Holocaust, Slavery, Capitalism, the Cultural Revolution, The Great Leap Forward, Pol Pot, Stalin's purges, Native Americans).

Out there the world is a web of reasons, hatreds, tragedies, anger, love, joys, misinformation, ignorance, compassion.

None of us escape the blessing and curse of humanity. Once you forget or ignore the essential humanity that binds us we are diminished. We create the other, we wage "war". In any name, in any cause. Another tragedy. Preventable or not.

"They resent us because they, and only they, have let our culture influence them so much, yet everything they make sucks, in comparison, so we don't want it."

There you have it, the intricacies of geo-politics, philosophy and religion summed up perfectly.
Deep, profound, sensitive, enlightened. Wow.

The islamic extremists simply do not matter. Their quaint ideas are outmoded, primitive and will ultimately be rejected by their own progeny. We have time, money and an incredible amount of force on our side. Our country should do everything it can to further enlarge the military, technological and economic gap between our country and the third world and muslim countries. Eventually, when we have exceeded their destructive reach, their constant whining will be nothing more than a minor irritant. Bin Laden has correctly perceived that he is becoming irrelevant. The attack was a sick attempt to reset the world agenda to a preoccupation with semi-functioning impoverished and/oppressive regimes. These sick people have no chance of prevailing or ever being accepted as anything more than demented luddite cretins.It is my suggestion that the government undertake additional public work projects that will demonstrate to the whiners that they will never match the achievements of the greatest people on this earth. God Bless America & May Almighty God Have Mercy on the Souls of Its Enemies.

I believe US should re-consider their actions in foreign diplomacy. "They hate us", Dan said. And people should think about why!!! It's not just grateful hate anyway. Imagine if there were the chileans who hade attacked WTC. It could be considered a payback, as US government support Pinochet's terrorist government to take over, killing the elected president Salvador Allende, and screwing chileans hope. Let's think about it.

EAF - Wow, what assumptions. I appear not to be the only one doing the pigeonholing here. When did I ever say that America and the Armed Forces have done nothing beneficial and provide no expanded world view? When did I say that our ideals are wrongheaded? How is it that everyone I speak to who opposes my views makes the assumption that I detest this country (even while enjoying its freedoms) and don't understand use of force? Not the point. The point is that we all have a long way to go, and I'd like to see that go in the direction of more peace and less brute force. Excuse me for disliking willful death and violence.
****
JT - Sorry to shout. I AM NOT EXCUSING ANYTHING. However, I will not stop using my right to speak my conscience, which I do not believe is sprouting from my computer chair (or that which sits upon it). So many of you keep assuming I'm some sort of nimwit intellectual who has no actual world experience. Well, now I'm getting pissy about it, but I'm certainly not interested in justifying my actions to a bunch of folks who seem to be demanding that I unthinkingly go along with their agenda.
****
I'm not seeing the world as it should be (6,000+ dead tends to make it pretty clear where the world is at), but if no one stands up and asks for a world as it should be, how will it ever get to be that world? I'm not dreaming, I'm putting a clear vision ahead of me and moving toward it. Yes, India may not have done all it could with the example of Gandhi, but they are worlds different than they were 70 years ago (heck, widow burning isn't that far in the past). Yes, Martin Luther King is dead, but shit, we can all walk in the front door of the store now and drink out of the same drinking fountain. And don't tell me that would have happened anyway without the influence and vision of people like that. All I'm trying to do is be personally responsible for my participation in democracy by stepping up to the plate and putting my vision out there in concrete (yes verbal) ways.

And no, haven't been to Afghanistan, but maybe I will when I'm finished with nursing school (though I'd really been planning on Chile to tell you the truth). Outrageous that you'd assume I just want the comfort of hearing my own voice in the dark.

Is there anything regarding safety in this matter that we
might have overlooked?
Or is there anything that closely resembles this subject matter in terms of safety that we need to focus our attention
on?

Personally, I long to feel the emotions of my fellow citizens, listen to their voices of support and dissent, and enjoy the widespread display of the flag. As an American woman living in Taiwan, I report with much regret that Taiwanese newscasters hardly looked solemn as the trade center was burning. One commentator was even....grinning? Taiwanese colleagues asked me if I had friends or family in New York. As I didn't, they were relieved and the topic was dropped. Students of all ages made jokes about the blasts, the planes, the falling bodies. I ejected three boys out of my classroom, then made a few jokes about the Taiwanese earthquake that killed two thousand a few years back just to prove a point. Then there were the betel nut workers on the first floor of my apartment who wouldn't turn down their Taiwanese songs on the radio so I could hear CNN the morning of the attack- this, the only television I had access to. The sight of two skyscapers imploding didn't even make these women PAUSE. Are Chinese people sympathetic? Some are, of course. But several aren't. We human beings spent millions of years being affected only by that which took place in our immediate space. With the advent of technology, we are now obligated to bear the events of an entire world. Or are we?

Why is this discussion titled "America under attack"? It is not America that is under attack -- the targets were the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, symbols of capitalism and militarism, against which many in the world have a legitimate grievance. The horror is that, although the attacks were on symbols that many Americans also oppose, innocent people died at the hands of fanatics. Now it is much more difficult for Americans to continue to oppose not just those symbols but their substance, which along with near slave conditions throughout the developing world (meaning those countries where so many American manufacturing jobs have been move) also includes a U.S. foreign policy driven by the need to control the world's oil supply, not just because of American gluttony for oil, but -- more to the point -- because of Big Oil's gluttony for money. All this may seem way off topic to those legitimately grieving the terrible human suffering loosed on Sept. 11. But it is not, because the attacks happened within a context only Americans seem not to know about. They were cheered in many places in this world, not because people there are inhuman brutes but because they have seen themselves in a state of war, or at least servitude, to the wealth and brute force of a small class of Americans -- not the American people as a whole -- for as long as anyone can remember.

The airstrikes disturb me. Our response has becomee overgeneralized: we are no longer seeking to try or even eliminate the parties that brought about the WTC attacks; instead, we are waging a war of indefinite scope on terrorism in general. Moreover, it is a war of easy escalation, because anyone who is not absolutely with us is absolutely against us. I would be happy to see the Taliban fall, but I am not convinced that the Taliban's noncompliance with U.S. demands constitutes a substantive attack on the U.S, and I question the justice in destroying a political organization (even one of questionable legitimacy) for anything except a substantive attack. Five or ten years into the future, I doubt we'll look back and see that the strikes have freed us from terror. More than enduring freedom, I see enduring violence, with concommitant death. I see more remains identified from dental records and bodies collected in buckets. It is a sad sight.

jdw, the taliban is basically a drug cartel that took advantage of the vacuum of power in the region, a drug cartel that provides 90% of the heroin on the streets of london and is cooperating with an self-described terrorist who is bombing civilians and attempting to procure large quantities of chemical weapons. the bombing campaign is highly targeted, no doubt the taliban members themselves are safely ensconced in civilian homes untouched but the military did take out power, radar, their planes etc. ...

look, i am a liberal and highly critical of bush but i am grateful that the current administration has been as restrained as they have been ... let's not be idealistic about the possible solutions ...

Here we are again, watching America bomb the shit out of another foriegn country...admittedly,we in the west have been provoked beyond words this time, but the end result will be the same. More people living in the ruins of their homeland, a ruins that right or wrong, they will blame on American foriegn policy and outright greed for their natural resources. We have callously ignored their cries of indignation and now we pay the price. We have lived the good life while others have been suffering, and done little but pay lip service when what they have needed was true human love and compassion.
Personally, I believe it is too late to turn the tide, but it is not too late to stop fanning the flames of all this hatred. Yes, we need to protect ourselves from this terrorism, and all of us on the planet have a moral obligation as human beings to do so no matter what our nationality, and who it is committed against.Rather than flexing our muscle as a 'super-power police force ', we need to approach this disease as a multi-national medical team, address the root causes and cure ourselves, even if it means accepting our own responsibility for some of it. I personally would rather live a more austere life, maybe pay more for a gallon of gas or the food on my table, and more importantly, share a good portion of the riches around me if it meant someone in a third world country wasn't paying the price for my easy life.
I realise that what I am saying is very simplistic, and that the middle east situation in particular is incredibly complex and most likely beyond any kind of peaceful solution.However, functioning from a base of righteous indignation rather than one of real insight and self examination is to simply stumble further into the morass of hatred and destruction. It is righteous indignation that is driving Bin Laden and his followers, including those who will leap in to take his place once he is gone. If we are truly for a peaceful world, and if we have learned anything from history, then we must rise above our pain, our desire for revenge, and put our minds to creating a new approach to solving the problems of our world that doesn't include bombing the hell out of each other.

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that hypercoked security ("OPEN THE TRUNK!") is gonna do a damn thing for us. It's all available here, and this practice, aside from ruining America's tourism industries, will only shut down legitimate businesses involved in import and export. Nor will the harass-the-brown-people game help anyone. It wasn't our lax security that was used against us; it was our whole system. Brilliantly. We have always wanted a liberalist democracy, and history illustrates this.

Unfortunately, if we in the first world- not just America- insist on responding to genocides and famines and earthquakes with Sally Struthers and pass-the-beernuts(Rwanda?), and if we also insist on keeping shady bedfellows for short-term interest(Taliban,1990s), people will increasingly resent us, and attack us at home AND away- anyone they see as being guilty-by-complicity. It happened this morning in Kuwait- a Canadian was shot to death. Watch it happen- kill Bin Laden and three will pop up in his place.

I wish the news media would start pronouncing Bin Laden's name wrong. He wants publicity. He knew the news would cover the first plane. So the second plane was timed for maximum coverage of the horrific event. Start calling him "Ban Ladem" or "that evil man" when talking about it with your friends. George Bush senior did this with Saddam. Whenever he referred to him he called him Sadam (like sad and am ) Apparently that pronunciation has something to do with pigs.

The Ultimate War On Drugs.

Why does your US flag have only 32 stars? What states did you elimiate? United we stand divided we fall.

I am from M

only a naive fool would support w/o question bush's actions. only a naive fool would automatically say we deserve wtc attacks 4 being arrogant in the past. only a naive fool would blame america for 100% of worlds problems. and only a naive fool would think non resistance will somehow make peace. rationality is in short supply nowadays, esp on college campuses. the propaganda techniques i was taught to scoff and not trust as a 4th grader are swallowed as gospel by most i know. we have wars on everything from breast cancer to illeteracy, yet some say a war on those who live for nothing but our destruction is somehow wrong? it will be many moons before mankind outgrows its animal instinct-- peace is good but not permanent or absolute,our society at 225 is still not completely evolved. if the naive continue to let the past bury the future, evolution is hindered.

"talking bout a world where all is free, just couldn't be, and only a fool would say that" steely dan

The world is a hopelessly cruel place, driven by the the mathmatics of physics rather than the beat of a human soul.
What words you say about a tragedy that aren't bullshit? You feel it in your deepest core. Thousands of deaths carry enough pain to wound the soul of a nation, and to destroy any individual.
We have been changed.
We have tasted death in a world that lives in denial of mortality.
We are thirsty for answers.
The old time religion. National pride. Revenge. Proactive aggression and counterattack.
Give it meaning. Make it real. Give us a reason for this despair and fear.
We have shaken off the illusion, only find that we have always known that this world runs on blood and moves by hunger.
I still love this world, with its innocents and devils.
Will you?
Can we?
Will we retreat, or will we move forward in the face of such horrors?
I beg the latter, my friends.
Please.

Respectfully,
Keith K.
kazthefirst@yahoo.com

sta:
How are you so sure?
I think they will devour us first.

The 9-11 terrorist massacre was an atrocity and fear is the big issue. My parents and grandparents inland from the So California coast were very worried after Pearl Harbor and into 1942. High school students were told to always carry a big thick textbook around to shield themselves from falling debris from enemy bomb blasts. Some were told to bite on a big eraser to blunt the concussions! They also knew that the Axis enemy would be defeated, but that we would lose good men and women. In February, hysteria created a rumor of Japanese bombers over LA which let loose antiaircraft fire for over two hours. Four people on the ground were killed by falling shrapnel. By 1944 we knew the Germans were goners (thanks to the fact that most of the German army was fighting Ivan on the Eastern Front) but that the Pacific war may last until the late 40s as we were about to invade the islands with huge landing assaults, which meant drafting men who had been exempt before. Thank God for the A Bombs! Now, we don t know what these evil, educated suicidal lunatics have in mind for the US--the British had to contend with the V1 buzz bombs but then came the unseen, unheard V2 ballistic missiles the Germans launched. Londoners died by the thousands but their lives went on during the daytime, then they lived in the Underground subways at night. May God be with our special forces who are limited but they will seek out and kill at night, and with the help of the British commandos (SAS) who have veterans such as Tom Carew (his book is Jihad!) who helped the Afghans who fought the Russians, including their snake eaters, the Spetznatz, we will prevail. May God protect us and Life Goes On. By the way, many couples think their sex life is more intense and fulfilling now--some think that this may be it, the Big One--but hell, I am over 60 and have lived under the threat of nuclear war for decades. Remember Dr Strangelove, the movie? A classic 1964 Kubrick masterpiece. Our air force that year order another 700 B52s for the event of a massive attack on the Soviet Union. I knew a former B52 navigator-bombardier who told me certain facts that were astounding. God Bless America!
B

DS -- You are an asshole of immense proportions. Please leave this country you despise. As a matter of fact I will gladly purchase your 1 way ticket out of here, if you promise never to return.

Since the 9-11 terrorist massacre I think back to 40 years ago, the peak of the Cold War. Under JFK the number of US troops in Europe was at least 300,000. Reservists were activated as a reaction to Russian pressure on Berlin ( a tinderbox was a gate in W Berlin, Checkpoint Charlie, where a US tank captain spoke directly with JFK as he related what the Russian tank turret was doing) and then a year later, the Cuban Crisis was the closest the world came to Armageddon. This is a new world of terror--airliners used as bombs hijacked by evil educated suicidal savages. Envelopes carrying spores of a disease that people like my brother in NW Montana who has a cattle ranch know about. What makes me furious is that these little monsters lived here and took advantage of our freedoms-education, our housing, our loans, our financial devices and even sat in fleshpots and sipped booze. So much for fanatic contempt for our lifestyles!

jj -- Whether YOU realize it or not, the comments made by ds infer that the 6000 that died at the WTC deserved to because our country has been "sticking its nose where it doesn't belong". I don't think he should be tossed out of the country for making those comments, I only offered him a chance to leave. He is obviously very unhappy with the United States... And as far as this country 'fucking over other soverign nations', he should realize the difference between warning, waiting, and then reacting to a ruthless dictator who invaded Kuwait, and surprising 6000 civilians with two Boeing airplanes (And yes, I do realize the Iraq standoff was about oil, not the Kuwaiti people).... Does this country have inconsistent policies in the Middle East? Yes we do, but does the fact that we take sides with Israel over Palestine -- A long, drawn-out conflict which has produced ONE-THIRD the casualties of the WTC -- mean we deserve what happened on the 11th? Bin Laden, his associates, and all the other murderers in that region cite that as THE reason for the Sept. 11 attacks.... The real problem the terrorists have is that they want the world to revolve around their ridiculous fundementalist religion, and the United States represents the exact opposite. If there was no demand for Western culture in the Middle East, then it wouldn't be there. They need to stop blaming that on us... And don't kid yourself about Bin Laden, he cares as much about Islam as I do about any religion - which is not at all. Bin Laden is a self-serving murderer trying to write himself into the history books. Fuck him and fuck everyone who supports him! And you know what- fuck you too!

Dear Nerve: Is it not the time to move on and forget the media madness engulfing us? Anthrax, smallpox, the possible attack on four California bridges, the all war news all the time on CNN? My parents and grandparents here in So California were fearful but by mid 1942 we had confidence that we would prevail. Yes, the casualty lists in the papers were awful. We sacrificed. We were half the population we are now. Government censorship. Rationing. I suggest that you keep all of the material but scrub this one regarding the how we feel about the "war". Stick with sexual stuff (or "issues"-I am an old guy of 61) and how men and women can relate sexually and mentally. Since the mid 50s we coped with the threat of nuclear war didn;t we? Life went on. In AA meetings outside issues are not encouraged. Alcoholics met our own Pearl Harbor or people like me would not need to be in the program. The way things are going about diseases in the air or in the food, even General Ripper (actor Sterling Hayden) in Dr Strangelove worrying about flouridation sapping his "vital bodily fluids" will sound rational. I like getting letters. I would like to fly to Munich tomorrow. Fly to La Paz and go kayaking. Snorkeling. LIVING AS A FREE AMERICAN. The odds of me getting some disease is about as real as being hit by lightning while being chewed on by a shark. More of us will die from alcohol abuse and tobacco than by any damn thing sprayed on us. Stick with sex and

"When one lives in fear, everything rustles" --how well we can relate to this. As of today, the four bridges in California are still standing tall. The terrorists may not have to destroy or kill anymore--other than the sad anthrax deaths, look what has happened to the US economy! Demoralize us, make us become suspicious and paronoid maybe enough for a few years. My concern is for the use of car or truck bombs using fertilizer and fuel oil. Sure, there may be more deaths--as in Israel and Britain, a witches cauldron of Islamic fury. Blowing up a Starbucks or a major department store (as happened to Harrods in London) would add to the injury. We will not be cowed. Months may pass before another trauma hits us. Something no one could have imagined may happen. As to the military, our troops will adjust as we fought in Korea through three winters, and Afghanistan may be higher, it cant be any colder than what we endured fifty years ago. The French legionnaires and the British SAS will help us and may God have mercy on the terrorists who think they can hide out.

After having read many of the other persons comments, I can only come to one conclusion based on the information offered. The conclusion that I am forced to make is that certain persons here are unable to elucidate a clear viewpoint, especially those that resort to subterfuge and, more especially, those that use "adult-cum-juvenile" expletives. To do so obscures what might be a sign of native intelligence. Yes, but there is the rub, it takes a life time for an intellect to evolve, and an intellect may find its foundation in intelligence, but intelligence is not intellect. Much like a block of marble is not a work of art without learning and skill to shape it.

So, it would behoove everyone here to accept the views of others, and disagree without prejudice or a sense of superiority.

I am sad we live in a world with armies. Every matter can be talked through between however many opposing sides there may be - that is, if all side are sane and rational. I am proud to serve in the US Army Reserve. My unit - if deployed - will set up prisor of war camps as well as camps for displaced people and refugees. The military is much maligned, but in many places, WE are the peace corps. We help the innocent with their infrastructure and in ways to harvest resources. We provide medical assistance as well as food. Sometimes, we even design and build housing. When I put on that uniform, I am mindful of the souls that wore it before me, those who fought nations led by madmen bent on world domination and those who went to VietNam, followed orders, then came home to be spit on by their countrymen. Pray for the victims. Pray for firefighters, police officers and emergency workers. Pray for my fellow brothers and sisters now in Afghanistan and places like Kosovo. If I am sent to Afghanistan and a shot at Osama Bin Laden or any other Taliban member presents itself - be it a "good" shot or not - you can be sure I'm going to take it. Hough! (pronounced Hoo-ah!)

I only skimmed others comments, so I hope I'm not being redundant.

My question is as follows: How does one, whether we want to call them "terrorists"(whatever the fuck that means) or "freedom fighters"(diddo) or whomever, go about declaring and waging a war on American? I mean, seriously? How does an organization declare war on the worlds largest superpower, who holds enough nuclear weopons to bomb the world into oblivious many times over?

People may be shocked by this question. They may think, "why would anyone want to declare war on u.s. I'm a good person". That's all and well, and I'm a good person too and I live in American. But let's not be naive and so fucking arrogant that we blank out history. I too an a son of an immigrant family and the whole rags to slighlty better rags is true of my person life.

Yet, are people really that myopic and near-sighted that they forget history? America isn't good with the exceptions of a few blunders sorry to say. We were founded on principals of freedom, but only a very elite few have truly benifitted at the cost of the majority. It's funny how quickly people forget the fact that to get this land we wiped out entire nations and people, enslaved Black peoples, exploited farmers and workers, oppressed women, and taken the worlds resources at will through brute force.

Whethere any of us are nice people or feel bad about all of these things is really great, but it doesn't change shit. As U.S. we've inherited this legacy.

Now I don't think people should ever die from war or violence or whatever. Who the fuck does? I'm sure even the so called "terrorists" do like the fact that thousands of their people are dying so we here in the U.S. can live our consumeristic lives. Maybe we'd like to think that, but really we'd just be lying to ourselves.

However, I do think that in order to destroy the corrupt Capitalist White Supremacist Patriarchal Imperialist system that we live in violence will most likely be necessary. I'm not advocating it. I'm just speaking realistically. Every and any major revolution, including the American Revolution involved war and it involved deaths. I like to believe there is another way and maybe there is.

In the mean time, don't be so ignorantly naive and oblivious as to think that because you're a good person and never did anything bad in you're life or whatever, that you are not responsible for the actions of the nation state you live it. Don't leave the country, for crying out loud. Fucking do something. Isn't that what it fucking means to be a citizen of a country. That you participate in the making and shaping of its policies. And no I don't simply mean voting, because as out last elections showed us, our electoral system is a farce. Even our founding fathers recognized this. Thomas Paine was all about direct democracy, based on the local level, not the centralized state (ie. dictatorship) we currently reside under.

I understand what its like to feel overwhelmed, like there is nothing we can do, but that's exactly what those in power want us to believe. There is tons of shit we can do. People are already doing tons of shit, and I don't just mean voting or going to a rally. I mean organizing, acting, speaking, building community, writing, singing, performing, whatever your skills and abilities, whatever you enjoy doing, use it as a means to express your humanity, your compassion and your opposition to the state.

If you aren't opposed to our state, then think about what you mean when you say terrorist, because we've got quite the credentials here in the U.S.

to YDD:

You are so ignorant

This is the war that will win because ignorance, because of the increasingly media -stupid mass ignorance.

Have you heard about the mayas? How they lived? The greeks?
the zapotecas, toltecas, chinese, etc?

Did you ever study their thinking and their aproach to life and to nature?

I am afraid of this moment , so full of ignorant and violent people, who s fault is it?
How you dare to be so stupid and violent ?

What happened on 9/11 was nightmarish

Its fucked....its all fucked.

" However when the 'poor unfortunate peasants' sneak a dirty bomb up your ass, and explode it; when your family and friends' faces are meling off; when the cafe you hang out in and philosophize no longer exists, will you still feel the same? "

Could it be this the only american dream?
making the poor countries more and more poor so we can steal them better?

lets have no hate from them!
is it to difficult to understand?
the hate is the reaction of the cause, the cause is our international rape toward other nations, lets stop doing this, and they will stop planning how to kill us, uh, get it?
Did you know Osamma was there because the CIA INSTALLED HIM THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?
THINK!!!!!!!!!!!

VB- When have we ever stolen from Afghanistan, Saudia Arabia, or Egypt? The reason "they" (they= those that CURRENTLY want to see YOU dead) want to kill us is our bias toward Israel as well as bin Laden's horror at seeing American troops on his 'holy land'. Fight one battle at a time VB. This has nothing to do with US corporations stealing cheap labor. This has everything to do with religious fanatics who believe an invisible man in the sky is rooting for them to kill millions. This has everything to do with religious fanatics who believe we are infidels; who believe women are second class citizens and resent us for not believing the same; who hate jews with such a passion that they blame us for israel's very existence; who are led by ruthless, vicious dictators and self-serving kings; who allow themselves fatwas (sp?) so they can commit the exact deeds that are a direct violation of their religious practices. These are self-serving men... And those that carry out their horror are brainwashed peasants. Is the USA responsible for every poor person in the world? And his feelings?... Yes this country has an awful foreign policy, especially in the middle east, but in this instance you need to step back and realize those around you- those who provide you the safety to publicly denounce the land you live in- are not the BAD guys.

Why do you think was Osama Bin Laden installed BY US in Afghanistan?

To make him rule over the miserable people and sell us cheap oil.

Why do you think President Allende was brutally assassinated in Chile BY US after being elected by the people?

Because his government was going to ask US Industries installed there to pay the right price.
And so and so.

Every government installed BY US in other countries produce poorness and privileges to US Corporations.

THAT IS STEALING , BECAUSE THIS GOVERNMENTS INSTALLED BY US ARE DICTATOR GORILLAS that do not give any human right for the people, all for USA CORPORATION INDUSTRIES.

They kill thusands and thiusands of poeple (much more than in the 11,)all with OUR OK LOOK.

I really encourage you to read Noam Chomsky as he explains that the first enemy of USA Economy would be the others real democratic elected governments who would look after their own freedom, own right to their resources, and human rights.

All of this fuzz about they want to kill us because our "freedom values" and "free I don't know what" is just paid propaganda paid by USA CORPORATIONS AGAIN.
Who pays CNN News?
USA INDUSTRIES!

Too difficult to think?

Too difficult to find out that we are blind and manipulated by mass media?
THINK, THINK,FOR GODS SAKE!!!

If you sorrow only for the innocent victims of the WTC and not for the innocent victims ,not only death people, but tortured childs, men and women, students,
all them tortured by the state terrorism installed by the USA, by the CIA, in such countries as Chile+Pinochet, ArgentinaPinochet, Vietnam, Corea, Granada, Guatemala,Nicaragua,etc, etc, atc,all of them against democratic countries at the time,then, instead of really sorrow, the WTC become a very convenient excuse for bombing the most rich area of oil in the entire world, dear.
If you don't know this, you are a real ignorant you are just denying reality for your comfort.
If you do not sorrow for the innocent victims of USA Intelligence services all around the world , I think, its most horrible.
Truth is painful.
Accept it.
Happy New Year, with morons like you, we can only watch increasing violence over the world instead of a world consciousness for a better world to live for everybody.
Oh , and your remark about being a foreigner or not, really seems important to you as to justify or not my intelligence and self determination, and brings all us such a good level of discussion ,congratulations.

I've been reading the last remarks en this section and I must say that it gives no cheering glympse of the future. I'm a chilean political scientist and believe me, I know closely what the effects of the US policy towards countries other than Middle East can be. Some of you talk about facts. Here's a fact. Almost 5,000 people died under de rule of the military dictatorship in my country, nearly 300,000 people suffered some kind of threaten, from torture to interception of mail. If you think about this, under the strict logic of "they did this to us, so i'll retaliate" we chileans should have long ago send a military unit to destroy the White House, because the intervention of CIA is now well documented (see declasiffications authorized by President Clinton). You lost 3,000 people, and it's awfull. But if you still find it legit to go in a world wide crusade, you must understand that this is no laser surgery, it

They hate us because we're good? We "feed the world"? What planet do you live on? Of the 28 leading industrial countries, the United States gives the smallest amount of aid per capita -- merely $31 per American per year. The US aid budget is just over $9 billion/year, or just under one-third of one percent of the federal budget. Even in total dollars, we're not even the most generous, though we have the world's richest country by far. Japan gives $15 billion per year, and this in the middle of a severe economic crisis. In proportional terms, the US can't even pretend to claim to be "generous." So Denmark, for instance, gives $331 per Dane per year, or over ten times as much the United States on a proportional basis. The lion's share of US development aid, furthermore, goes to only two countries -- Israel and Egypt, their pay-off for the Camp David accords, which eliminated Egypt from the Palestinian conflict so Israel would have a free hand to wreck that wretched people. Only 16% of US aid goes to the countries classified as most needy (known as Least Developed Countries). Finally, most US aid is given in the form of "credits," which means the aid recipients must use the aid to buy goods and services from US companies, instead of using the money to fund local industries and economic activity. If you think for two seconds, what you see is that US aid is a subsidy from the US taxpayer to US corporations to sell goods and services to foreigners who can only be helped if they develop their own industries, a project the US remains opposed to for fear of creating competition that would undercut the profits of US-based corporations. US aid is a scam. The only ones fooled, however, are Americans who prefer comforting illusions about how "good" we are. The rest of the world knows the facts.

You may check all figures at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).

Just nuke them all man!

This virtual dialogue, as it were, was begun as a commentary regarding the events of 9/11/2001. It appears to have degenerated into a conflict of personalities. I have not read all of the content herein, but what I have read makes me wonder if we have already forgotten the essential facts. The United States was attacked by guided missiles on 9/11/2001. This attack took a great deal of planning, intelligence gathering, and years to implement. The discipline required to have kept the plan from the US and other intelligence communities is of a nature that could probably not be have been possible without a fervent and warped ideology. The terrorists attacked the United States of America and got the attention that they wanted. Here is the greater question: Was 9/11 not only a suicide for those in control of the aircraft, but also the ideology that was behind it?

To SA: Fuck off.

to jk:
And people from 3world wake up at 4 to go to a slavery work without the fair money reward, without the security, the car, the house loan, with horrible food , victim of horrible politicians , policies, and policemen supported by YOU, having to pay for everything ,even for your wealth.
Why dont you live us alone?
Why dont you stop real democracies grow in other countries?
BECUAUSE YOU ARE HAPPY LIKE THIS, STEALING FROM US!
because its for the big transnational usa companies we are all abligated, NAD YOU USA PEOPLE ARE DOING NOTHING!

To BV: All that and if you could, you'd move here in a second. You'd drown yourself in our culture. You'd walk around in a pair of Timberlands boots with Sean Jean jeans and Tommy Hilfiger sweater with the American flag dead center. You know you would and you'd love it. You wouldn't be able to pry the ear to ear smile off your face... But you can't, because we don't want you. Your lawless, drug selling country filled with uneducated people that smell worse than a pile of week old human shit has ruined you. You tried to get in and we slammed the door on your face. We just gave 5 billion dollars (which is an uncountable amount of your exchange- probably teeth since none of you have any) to you to forgive your debt to us, and you whine because we haven't given you six. You ungrateful selfish mutt that bites the hand that feeds you. You're taking my tax-money that I work 16 hours a day for and yet you still despise me... Go sell some blow. At least then you could be independent.

The last few comments are completely unconstructive, constitue bickering and only serve to wreck the exchange of views.

Well said ROH, but I must note a few things. Americans are full aware that there are tragedies all over the world. A criticism against America is that our gov't gives less money per capita than many other countries, but that we are among the richest. Take a look at American individuals and what they give. You will learn quickly that Americans do know that tragedy exists beyond our borders. There is also a difference between natural disasters and mass murders. We did send our troops to Kosovo for that reason only. Next, I personally have never supported any military action that this country has ever taken. I despise any killing. But how many times can this country stand by while a 'boogeyman' named bin Laden declares the US is a 'paper tiger' and calls for murdering all Americans? I live in NYC and lost several friends in the murders at the WTC, and I have basic human need to see justice and retribution for those responsible. People around the world may think about the murders from time to time. I think about it every hour. A low plane. A loud bang. It is never far from any of our minds. If that's what 'they' wanted then they have succeeded, and should smile knowing so. I hope that one day my gov't kills or imprisons every Al Queda member or supporter. That's what I want and I will smile when I know it has been done.

"W" :nuke them, nuke them, nuke them all.

Of course it doesn't make sense. Anybody that prays five times per day is an ass. Nothing he/she does is by a rational thought process. Take a look at at these religious fanatics beliefs in the afterlife. They parallel everything to what's here on earth. In their minds these "kingdoms" are blessed with riches, favors, and virgins to fuck. They believe God is rooting for them as though He was rooting for the Yankees.. It's all a bunch of wishful thinking by poor individuals who live in lands filled with nothing but sand and suppress their every sexual desire until they are behind closed doors when they take it all out on there wives. I feel bad for them, because when an independent thinker among them steps forward he is beheaded.

Ok,
Now that is proved that Bush knew all about the attacks,

will you beleive that he let that happened to have what he now has, your control,your agree for cutting your freedom of speech,of information,of free association,of free association of gender (see what he eants for schools, genders apart)

Will you see NOW the right wing as the new terror for you ,and us, the rest of the world?
Will you stop defending your monster?
What do you need?

nc- are you retarded? do you honestly think george bush knew the attacks were coming and did nothing? i don't know what country you are from, and under which dictators rules you conform to, but over here in america the dollar rules, and the cost was devastating. for that reason alone, you should stop spewing your stupidity. come back down to reality.

NC: That is not History you cite you moron. That is conspiracy theories. Roosevelt did not know about the attack at Pearl Harbor, just as Bush did not know about the Terrorist's attack on the WTC/Pentagon. And THAT is HISTORY. Read a real book by a renowned author. Watch an intelligent TV program produced by the Public. There are many tabloid writers that can claim conspiracy at every turn to sell the weak minded (like yourself), but the true scholars and itellectuals shoot them down with FACT. All you ever have is rumor... Not everything is a conspiracy run by the US, and to belive so is very narrow-minded and hollow of you. What will you believe next? That the United States has planted computer chips into your brain so that we can steal all of your ideas? You sound like someone that could use a healthy dose of lithium.

Contrary to what you belive we are not run by an evil regime (a moron, maybe). But we happen to be the only super-power left and playing parent/policemen to the rest of the world is not a black and white job. It is a job that most people in this country would prefer we did not do, but, as evident by the Bush policy of hands off the Palstine/Israel situation, it is a job that we must unfortunately do. When left to your own devices you all kill each other like animals...and then blame us. And while you make your outlandish claims, remember one thing, the next time your country is need, don't worry, we will help you again.

NC: First of all, your assumptions that I don't know American writers is a foolish one indeed. What Chomsky or Sontag writes is their one opinion- not the end all be all of anything. I know Susan Sontag has blamed America for the attacks on the WTC, but Susan Sontag is an old hag that has made an extraordinary living by taking the anti-establishment view. She is one person with one opinion. She is old and her time has passed. Her recent writings indicate she is a person that is going senile. You should stop reading her...... You need to stop believing that the U.S is responsible for all of the world's problems. Be independent! All of your little (and they are very little) conspiracy theories are laughable. We have every right to defend ourselves, and ultimately, you, against terrorism. We know that we will be criticized by the people (you) that never do anything, because people that never do anything (you) only know how to criticize. So stay on the sidelines and tell us how horrible we are, and when we bail you out of your next financial crisis or the next time some crazy dictator takes-over/invades your country, we'll bail you out again. And don't worry, you don't have to say thanks. We're used your ungrateful kind already.

mexico is divided in two; a very cultivated population, very well educated, that read chomsky ,sontag,warhol,
cunningham,raushenberg,etc, all your great artists and thinking people that live in your country,(not you)

our own great artists are not only too well recognized by the world, but i am allways told that when american artists come to mexico, they are overwellemed by all the inside culture, as we come from a very grand tradition of sensitivity and understanding, see the olmecas, mayas,etc etc,
about modern art, we have also very good examples, toledo,soriano, etc,

into contemporary artists, gabriel orozco would be a good example.

about high-end technology, you should know, our hight skilled engenieers are known for been one of the best in the world, and when they finish school usa companies enroll them (they come here for them)and dont start about
why do they go there, this is complex thing, you really need them, its convenient for you to us to have problems,
you know this, and this is why you "help" us, you loan us money, and when things go wrong, because our corrupted politicians supported by you or because world economy,
you take away half of our territory, or something,stop beleiving the crap that you are so "good".

in mexico there also exists a horrible mass media controled culture ,televisa, that yes, you are right, with the long term corrupted pri, has made people in general stayed with horrible and mediocre contents, as it is good for this governements to keep the general population in ignoorance as in your country

How can a person think a artists has no longer value for its age? this is so stupid, and i am taking this time to reply you because i have the faith you would understand that it is not a country against another, my boyfriend is a ny person, some of my best friends are of all nationalities, etc but you cant be so blind as to see that a new power has installed itself, (bush and the very right wing) and this right wing has also installed here, with marketing and usa money this pan new governement.

this is an example; wallmart as the multinational usa company, makes new jobs in every place its installed, but destroying much more employments ,better ones, with more rights.

its the new ecnomical power that makes a few to have all the money and the power.

can you see this?
do you think i am not critic to my own country?
i am , that doesnt mean i cant see the link within whats happening as a global phenomemon, the clue in mexico-usa is Enron, look at the news.

Miller, a New York University professor of media studies, has fashioned a devastating compendium of President George W. Bush's grammatical gaffes, syntactical shipwrecks, mind-boggling malapropisms and simply dumb comments. Page after page (after page) of quotations, suggests Miller, reveal that Bush is a man who, while not stupid, is prodigiously illiterate and woefully uneducated. Further, and compounding the problem, Bush could not care less about these shortcomings. How then, Miller asks, and this is his larger concern, did someone in Miller's opinion so obviously unqualified to be president convince so many voters that he was? Miller's answer is, in a word, television: Bush succeeded on TV not despite his "utter superficiality," but because his superficiality blended seamlessly with the vacuous culture of the tube. It was not simply that Bush's handlers were able to manipulate his image, attempting to construct out of his ignorance an anti-intellectual "good ole boy" persona, but that news professionals in the medium were all too willing to go along with this ploy. They went along because the pundits of TV have become, according to Miller, increasingly right-wing, thus natural Bush allies, but also because they no longer care to talk about substance, preferring instead discussion of "likability" and other attributes of pure image. While Miller is sometimes vague in his arguments, he has produced a sharp-edged polemic questioning the wisdom of how we elect our leaders. As President Bush has said, "It's not the way America is all about in spirit; the five justices are "criminals in the very truest sense of the word," he says, who have exhibited "the morals of an alley cat." The Florida recount, claimed the Court, was invalid because it violated the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment; as different counties used different methods for determining voter intent, voters were being treated unequally. Bugliosi argues, in precise yet accessible language, on page after page, that this justification does not stand up to scrutiny; that it is an incorrect and unprecedented use of the equal protection clause, feebly applied and argued, and was simply the best excuse the Court majority could come up with. Bugliosi, perhaps best known as the author of Helter Skelter, often writes with the subtlety of a professional wrestler, but here he diverges from much of the outrage that passes for political commentary these days by backing up his bluster with careful legal analysis. The results which, Molly Ivins calls "the modern equivalent of `J'Accuse' " are troubling and fascinating. (June 1)Forecast: This originated as an article in the Nation that brought in more letters than any piece in the magazine's history. There are still a lot of disgruntled Democrats out there who will welcome this biting critique, so expect lively sales and lots of media controversy. Also, on June 18, Oxford University Press will publish Alan M. Dershowitz's take on the Supreme Court decision, Supreme Injustice.

Why do so many people on this board feel that America go what it deserved on 9/11? As though Osama Bin Laden cares about what you in Europe think. About what you an the cafe in Soho thinks. Or, about what you in Mexico think. He is not fighting for you, nor is he fighting for his people. He is fighting for his place as a martyr in the history books... So many posts read "I feel bad for what happened but...'you deserved it'". While many of these people list valid arguments for America changing its approach to the rest world, they don't understand the magnitude of what happened on that day. They don't understand because they have never been to New York City- my city- and cannot comprehend the actual size of the WTC. They cannot comprehend the loss that New Yorkers- the most ethnically, racially, and culturally diverse group of people in the world- experienced that day. They will never understand the stress that New Yorkers face everyday. And they will NEVER understand what it is to live among the greatest people on this earth in the greatest city on this earth every day.... There is not one New Yorker that deserved death because American businesses use your countries for cheap labor- You DO NOT have to work there. There is not one New Yorker that deserved death because America gobbles up the worlds resources- You DO NOT have to sell it to us. There is not one New Yorker that derserved death because you want what we have to sell- You DO NOT have to buy it. And there is not one New Yorker that deserved death that day at the hands of some very misguided, uneducated Islamic morons... Other posts feel the need to remind everyone of how THIS earthquake killed more than 9/11 or THAT famine was also very devastating and no one made a big deal about that! Well, allow me to clarify a difference to all of you. Earthquakes, famines, tornados and Hurricanes are natural disasters, while the MURDERS (Read: Not an attack. Attacks are on military posts) at the WTC were done by the hands of other man. Yes, it was the single worst day of mass murder this WORLD has ever seen. It was the single worst day of destruction at the hand of men that this world has ever seen. So, yes, there is reason to dwell on it... And finally, we all know that if (or when) these Islamic morons come-a-knocking again, it will be on New York City's door, and they will have something grander than two airplanes. Maybe a dirty bomb. Maybe not. But, in the meantime, I don't see how any of you could criticize this country for trying, by any means necessary, to thwart such an attack. Unfortunately, most of these countries are unable to clean up themselves, so yes, we have to do it for them. So to all those who think we should sit this one on the sidelines: FUCK OFF! MY LIFE IS AT STAKE.

but first lets try to eliminate that threat of another attack in new york... its a very easy to criticize from the frontlines of a barbeque in the land down under.

make fuck-not hate.

As valid as some emotions are, my experience has been that whenever one attempts a rational discussion on the policy and political responses to sep 11, it gets pushed to one side by all sorts of chauvinistic and/or emotional opposition ....even to the point where my right to have a different oppinion is questioned. Those who are so emotional about it all need to be even more careful to avoid such things as falling into a siege mentality, to avoid posturing around "if your not 110% for us, you must be 110% against us" and to avoid bankrupt inferences/ accusations based on guilt by association. i am tired of having my oppinions pushed aside by such claptrap.

JK, by your consistant responses you show my contributions are relevant, as are the views of people from outside of New York. Invoking the death of your friends to force a silence or an acquiescence to your views and emotions is not as principled, nor as healthy as you pretend. Take care, JK, that your exchanges on this page do not degenerate into another slanging match. In my very recent travels flying around the US, I found many of my concerns are also shared by US citizens. JK, if you don't wish to be accused of chauvinism (or even dismissed due it) then don't use ethnic or cultural sterotypes to "put down"/dismiss others. It is a very thin line that separates a concern to prevent terrorism from being a "war for global supremacy" or becoming a domestic "war" on those with actively, different oppinions. There is much evidence that such a line has been crossed both internationally and within the US. Crossing that line doesn't help to prevent terrorism! To move on a bit, JK, how do you feel about the proposals to replace the WTC towers with several more realistic sized buildings? I must admit I did wonder how permission was given to build the WTC towers given they were not able to be quickly evacuated in an unforseen emergency?

mm- you ask have we learned something as though the 9-11 murders should have taught us a lesson. if it is your belief that 19 "freedom fighters" taught 3000+ innocents a lesson, than you don't care about life at all. you're fueled by hatred and jealousy and you should look at your own inadequacies first. find out what it is that makes you feel such hatred before you act out your violent feelings. find out before it is too late for you. god help you!

another attack on innocent people. another islamic fundamentalist claiming some sort of victory in killing mass amounts of people in the name of Allah. another moron brainwashed into believing great things await if they just go and murder 200 people doing nothing more than enjoying themselves on holiday... I wonder: Is it Australian foreign policies that cause this? Is it Australian Imperialism? Is it the Australian's support for Israel? I mean let's face it, the Australians seem to be the victims here, so lets start seeing what it is THEY have done wrong over the past 100 years that may have caused this. That's what we do here- Blame the victims.

Wait- The US occupies Iraq? Did that ivasion happen so fast that you were the only person to see it? Please deal with the present... I must say for a person who, in the past, has detailed many intelligent points, this last bit is a large disappointment. You sound like you are trying bullshit yourself into believing what you wrote. If I am to understand you correctly, the Australian people/gov't is not interested in the perpetrators who may have ordered the strike, but rather only the people with an ABSOLUTE direct link in carrying the strike out. That's interesting, and a foolish belief. That you are intersted only in this so-called "constructive enagement" to find out WHY they did it? PUH-LEASE! You're slight indication that you blame the US for the Bali attack, rather than those that carried out the bombing, is basically blaming yousrelf. You call on Americans to stand up to it's government's policies, well then, what about you? Your government's policy is to the 'blindly' back the US... Take to the streets ROH. Take to the streets. You're the enabler... I also must say that I find it hard to believe that an Australian whose brother/sister/friend went missing the attack was just as worried about the Balinese, Brit, or New Zealander that they didn't know, as their own family member. Here, I think I know what you are TRYING to say, but by saying it at all, it's as if you are saying the citizens of the US don't give a shit about anybody else. That we don't want justice, only revenge and retribution. And that again is total bullshit. If you believe that removing a brutal regime that refused to hand over the man responsible for murdering thousands of people is state sponsored terrorism, than you need to understand the concept of self-defense. How many time do you allow someone to hit you in the face before striking back?... Don't accuse all Americans of being war-mongers. Many of us are very much against an ivasion of Iraq, but it hasn't happened, so stop acting like we're already raping their oil. As far as hunting down and destroying every last leader in the al Quaida network, you bet your ass WE HAVE THE RIGHT, and if you're lucky, maybe we will.

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