PERSONAL ESSAYS




baby love
 


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Before I became a mother, I believed that motherhood would change me: my maternal instinct would smooth me, balance me, make me patient, give me a nurturing generosity. I'd become a better person but I wouldn't lose myself. I'd breastfeed exclusively but still find time to write. I'd make homemade baby food but still fuck. I had it all figured out.

    I bought all the new books on mothering that I read about in The New York Times and The New Yorker Bitch in the House, The Mask of Motherhood, The Myth of Motherhood, The Price of Motherhood, A Life's Work, Fresh Milk, and a book a friend recommended — Fermentation — the only erotic novel I could find that featured a pregnant woman. But no one else's narrative could prepare me for the next stage of my sexuality.

    People always tell you that becoming a parent will change everything, but what I didn't count on was that it wouldn't change me. The problem is that I'm still the same person, a sex-obsessed neurotic facing a new reality: my husband and I love our son more than we love each other. It's like being in a permanent threesome, the kind where one person — not you — gets all the attention.

    How do I summarize my sex life before the baby? Well, I had one. I lost my virginity at fifteen, had four partners by the time I was seventeen. I considered myself pansexual, theoretically as open to getting turned on by a coffee table as a person. I had boyfriends and a few girlfriends, some serial monogamy with lots of fucking around in between. I reveled in being provocative. I instigated group sex at parties, usually fueled by alcohol. I tried everything I could think of: oral, anal, BDSM and beyond.

    I met Ken when I was twenty-five and he was thirty-four. What we had was probably typical: in the beginning it was all love and lust, fucking in bathrooms and trains, dancing all night, having sex all day, experimenting madly and believing we couldn't get enough of each other. Eventually, of course, we did get enough of each other and slowed down. We reserved weekend mornings to do nothing but fuck and eat and read the paper. Then weekend mornings became more and more about reading the paper.

    When I hit thirty, we decided we were ready for a baby. Sex without birth control was hot. I hadn't fucked without a condom since I was eighteen, and the skin-on-skin friction was arousing, but so was the idea of sex as an extension of humanity, of something bigger than just us. I had one of those dream pregnancies — I exercised every day, felt great, and looked fabulous. It suited me, and I reveled in it. I had new tits that I absolutely adored. A certain type of man paid me a lot of attention. The hormones were like being on E all the time; my husband and I had sex every day. At parties I listened politely to the horror stories of couples who didn't have sex for four months after their babies were born and was privately dismissive: "That'll never happen to us."

    But we were, in fact, just like everyone else: our sex life went down the toilet right away. It started with the birth, which didn't go as planned. Felix was premature, so I had him in a hospital with labor-inducing

It was quite a shock to be injured, and to be injured there.

drugs, not in a hot tub with a midwife. I was in diabolical pain and shat everywhere, including standing up on the bed while barking at the nurse, "No I'm not having the baby I'm just taking a shit put something underneath me now."

    The worst part: I ripped open, requiring more than twenty stitches.

    I'd never had stitches anywhere before, had never broken a bone. It was quite a shock to be injured, and to be injured there. When I finally got the courage to look, it was a huge relief to see that my clitoris was still there, and in the same place. But I discovered a womb with a view. The rumblings I had heard from women, not in complete sentences even, just mumblings of "never the same again" — this is what they were talking about. A swollen mass of red flesh. A gaping hole where tightness had been. I swear I could see my cervix.

    I felt disfigured and damaged. I didn't cry, I shook. This isn't happening, I thought. No one must know. I blocked any thought or feeling below my waist, wore cleavage-revealing clothing, encasing my milky breasts in black lace bras under ripped-open tank tops. I became obsessed with Kegel exercises.

    Eventually, I felt around and masturbated, tentatively. As I became aroused, my breasts squirted milk. That was cool. I felt like a teenage boy trying to see how far he could shoot. When I told this to one of my mommy friends, she said, "You should try masturbating while breastfeeding. It's amazing."

    I didn't want to miss out. I went home, got out my mini-massager and settled into the Glider rocking chair with Felix, then a month and a half old, at my breast.

    Then the doorbell rang.

    It was the FedEx man. I buzzed him in, but he couldn't get through the second door, which sticks. So I went to the door in my bra and yoga pants and signed for the envelope with Felix still nursing. When the FedEx man turned to leave, I realized I still had the vibrator in my hand, not my keys, and the second door had closed behind me. I was now stuck in the vestibule with a vibrator and a baby. I rang the bells to my neighbor's apartments and no one answered.

    I started to cry hysterically. It was sleeting and below zero and I was barefoot and practically naked with an infant and where could I go like that and what the fuck was I doing anyway? Only a sick person tries to masturbate with a baby, for God's sake. And I'm locked out of the house and everyone will know what I was doing and . . .

    Noticing my distress, the FedEx man rang the bell at the house next door. My neighbor — a blue-collar father of three fond of revving his motorcycle at eight in the morning — waved me over. I hid the vibrator under the rug and ran. He settled us on his couch with a blanket and asked if my kitchen window was locked. I whimpered "no," and he went to break into my apartment. I looked at his kids' Crayola drawings and hoped he didn't find the vibrator, or worse yet, step on it and break it.

    He came back with one of my coats and asked if I wanted to finish feeding. I mumbled "No, thank you, thank you," still crying. I ran home, retrieved the dastardly vibrator, threw it in the back of my drawer and fed Felix tenderly from the other breast, apologizing to him the whole time. I vowed never to masturbate again.

    But an hour later I was already thinking how hot that was of my neighbor — taking control and saving me, all knight-in-shining-armor-like, when I was so vulnerable.




That incident crystallized the whole madonna/whore thing: the feeling that as a mother, I wasn't allowed to be sexual. My black bras and obvious cleavage were meant to counteract that notion, and they may have fooled other people, but I couldn't trick myself into feeling sexual, or even sexy. I desperately wanted to subvert the image, but I was just like everyone else.

    When Felix was two months old, I decided that my husband and I absolutely had to have sex. I didn't feel like it, but I was so paranoid about us losing our sex life that I started something. We fooled around on the couch while Felix took a nap in the bedroom.

     I was terrified that it would hurt, that I wouldn't get turned on, that I wouldn't be able to come, that it just wouldn't work. I was scared that he was so turned off by seeing a baby come out that he wouldn't want to go in. And he didn't. He

I watched Lez Be Friends, but the close-ups just made me think of changing diapers.

found my clitoris and stayed there. We had a gentle session of mutual masturbation and regained some sense of intimacy.

    But still, no intercourse. Despite my doctor's reassurance that I was healing well, I had convinced myself that sex would be unbearably painful. At the suggestion of my shrink, I gave myself a "sex hour" while the baby napped. The idea was to experience the pain I anticipated by myself, so I would know what to expect. While Felix gurgled in my arms, I got everything out and ready to go. I put a towel in my rocking chair. On the coffee table I lined up two dildos, a butt plug, some lesbian porn, three vibrators and two bottles of lube. I was nothing if not prepared.

    As soon as Felix was asleep and situated in his crib, I put in Lez Be Friends. But the close-ups just made me think of changing diapers. I used a lot of lubricant and inserted the narrowest dildo carefully. It didn't hurt as much as I thought it would. I was determined to get turned on, and when I did, it felt like it was happening to someone else. I came, but not in that supercalifragilistic-Prince-song-sex-relief way that I used to. My orgasm was almost in spite of itself.

    At a yoga class a few weeks later, I felt my muscles, my bones, my skin, for the first time in months. I realized that I literally don't feel my body anymore. Before I gave birth, every bump and bruise would send me to the chiropractor. Now I was sure my back was screwed up from hunching while nursing and carrying car seats and strollers, but I didn't even notice. My body was no longer mine.

    I knew that no one has sex for months after having a baby (except teenagers, my doctor told me). I knew most of my mommy friends weren't having sex. Felix demanded my attention day and night. So why was I still obsessing over it? I had used sex to fill every possible hole in my life up until the day I gave birth (actually, even on the day I gave birth — I gave Ken a blowjob right before we left to go to the hospital). Now I didn't have any room left; I was full of Felix. The constant motion of early motherhood actually decreased my neuroses. I didn't have the time to worry myself sick by cataloguing my humiliations. I was doing something important: keeping this tiny human alive with milk from my breasts. My body was doing what it was meant to do. I didn't need an orgasm to slam me out of myself.

    Still, I missed my husband. One night in bed, I said, "I think you need a non-sexual tour of the region, so that when we do have sex again, you know what you're getting into. Literally." I spread my legs and directed the reading light between them. I opened my sex with my fingers and showed Ken the ridge of scar tissue that stretched diagonally from the right side of my vagina to the left side of my anus. I took his hand so he could feel the area just inside the right wall of my vagina. "This still hurts. That great move you have will have to wait."

     He was tentative. "I saw a baby come out of there, " he said. "It's not for fun anymore."

     It was understandable that I didn't want to have sex, but wasn't he supposed to? My mommy friends were starting to complain about their husbands' libidos. Gisele told me she kept Ernesto happy by giving him a blowjob every three days. I knew that Ken was as busy as I was, as tired and cranky, and in shock at being a father and responsible for our little family. But I hated him for making me feel so undesirable. I hated myself for not talking to him about it. I hated that it was up to me to initiate sex. We occasionally talked about it, but even talking about sex was uncomfortable. Ken seemed completely turned off. Part of what I love about him is that he has a sensitivity that's almost feminine. Now I wanted him to be more of a man.





Seven months after Felix was born, the three of us came home from an afternoon walk. With Felix still asleep in his stroller, I said, "How about we take a chance he'll stay asleep?" We were both tentative. Ken undressed and got into bed while I went to the bathroom. I didn't want him to see my body, so I took off my jeans and socks, then got into bed and slipped off my underwear, T-shirt and bra. We didn't look at each other, just hugged hard and tight for a long time, then loosened up and kissed. I took his ass in my hands and noticed it was softer. I was glad that I wasn't the only one who was out of shape. I had forgotten that just the feeling of his cock in my hand could turn me on. He put his hand on me, opened me, found the wetness inside, rubbed my clitoris until I told him to fuck me. He put on a condom and entered me gently, missionary position. I kept asking him to look at me. I wanted not to be invisible.

     It was a little uncomfortable, but not the body-wracking pain that I expected. I relaxed into the pleasure of being fucked. After awhile he came, looking in my eyes, then lay next to me and used his hand to get me off.

    Afterward, I asked the million-dollar question. "Does it feel different inside?"

    "Not really . . . maybe a little . . . To tell you the truth, it's been so long . . . "
    We laughed. I realized I missed the afterwards as much as the sex: the hormone high, the smell.

    After that night, we had sex every week or two for a few months. Then it dwindled away again. Felix grew. He needed more; I had less. Our romantic little family was actually a small corporation. We were really tired. Familiarity breeds contempt. Resentment builds upon resentment. We lost our humor.

    And I realized that I love my son more than I love my husband. I know Felix's body better than I know my own. Right now, his ear is exactly as long as my middle finger from knuckle to tip. He has a patch of dry skin on his left shin. His fingers still splay like starfish, hot against my skin. I lean in too close; I want to get a whiff of his breath. When I read him a book, I surreptitiously press my lips to his hair over and over, very lightly so he won't notice and bat my hand away. He knows I'm too into him. When I feed him, he pushes my face away. He wants the breast and the milk, not the mother. I'm terrified he'll grow up to be one of those boys in high school who only look at women's breasts, not their faces. I worry that I will be jealous of his girlfriends.

    Sometimes I'm afraid I go too far. I linger a little too long when I look at his little dimpled ass. I enjoy it too much when I put lotion on after his bath. I know everybody loves a naked baby; I know children are inherently sexual; I know it's normal to be turned on by your infant. One fatherhood book has a sidebar that tells new dads not to get freaked out if they get a hard-on. But this is tricky territory. Is it wrong to encourage him to touch himself? Is it okay to think of my baby when I masturbate? Is that just a manifestation of his all-consumingness? Babies are like a gas — they expand to fit all available space.

    But I worry that I'll subtly cross the line, that the sexuality I share with Felix will fuck him up. (My parents never talked to me about sex; my son may have the opposite problem.) In my mind, I can fuzzily see the progression from our innocent play to abuse.

People always say of breastfeeding, "It's sensual, not sexual." But it is sexual.

They are little, they are yours, you forget that they have their own wants and needs, you think you can do anything with them, for them, to them.

     I would never abuse my child, but I understand a little those who do.

     Sometimes when Felix takes his nap, I get out the Hitachi. I don't think about my husband. Nor do I think about Johnny Knoxville, or that butch dyke at the coffee shop, or being taken from behind by a faceless stranger. Right after the baby was born, I imagined mothers licking my wounds. Now I think about other men who are fathers. Sexy men, new men, but fathers. Tackily enough, my friend's husbands. They would understand the leaking breasts, the extra pounds around the hips, the moodiness.

    But always, my thoughts turn to Felix. I have a hard time concentrating on my clitoris, even with all that roaring power on it. I start thinking of when his next doctor's appointment is, or how cute it is that "yellow" and "sausage" are his first multisyllabic words.

    For someone who has, for better or worse, gotten strength and power from being desired, I am now operating unsuccessfully in two parallel universes. On one hand, I have never been so desired in my life. Felix ravages my breasts as no one else ever has. It's not sexual hunger, it's actual hunger. Even now, at a year and half, he runs from across the room at the sight of them, tackles me onto the floor or couch, climbs up my body until he's within reach, then draws back and takes a good look, grins and goes in for the attack. People always say of breastfeeding, "It's sensual, not sexual." But it is sexual. He nuzzles and paws at me, grunts, throws his head from side to side as he latches on, his pink mouth warm on my nipple. He tries to get as much as he can into his mouth as his whole body burrows into me, his little heels digging into my thighs and still-soft belly. He kneads the breast he's nursing from with his hand to get more milk, and uses his free hand to tweak, twist and pull on my other nipple. I wonder if he's holding onto it protectively, so no one else can get it.

    Who would give up being needed like that? Not me. Because the opposite universe is the one in which no one wants me. I'm a mother; I have little to no value to the outside world.





In keeping with our Felix-centered life, two months ago my husband and I invited thirty-two babies and their parents to a Valentine's baby brunch. We bought cases of cheap champagne, and the parents we know from yoga and work and the playground ate quiche and bagels, got drunk and pretended it was a kids' party. I started drinking at two. By nine-thirty, after the last guests left, I slurred to Ken, "I love Felix more than I love you."

    It was the first time I'd said it out loud. I continued: "And you love Felix more than you love me. What's up with that? I want you to love me more than you love him, but I still want it to be okay for me to love him more than you."

    Despite my drunkenness, he was patient. "It's different, that's all," he said. "It's a different kind of love."

    "It doesn't matter," I said, then passed out. Happy Valentine's Day, honey.

    My husband and I are fully in the cult of the kid. Our culture now rewards long-term breastfeeding and spending $800 on a stroller. We are supposed to sacrifice everything for our children: certainly sex, even romance. But I want to have a romantic life with my husband. I don't want to wake up when Felix is in school, or going off to college, and not know who Ken is. I want to be a model of erotic love for Felix to learn from.

    I'd like to be able to say that by applying the golden rule of threesomes — play with everyone and take turns — I could come to some reckoning, but I can't. I can't resolve my sexuality changing, nor the placement of my erotic longing onto my son, nor my worries about psychologically damaging him. My husband gamely says, "It's okay, it's just all about you two for now." I try out the long view and understand that this is just a phase. I will stop breastfeeding Felix eventually; he'll get older and more independent; our physical attachment will decrease; he will probably not turn into an ax murderer as a result. I'm not sure where that leaves Ken and I. Maybe we'll wind up scheduling sex, like the advice columns tell you to. It sounds more businesslike than bold. But as I recall, a ménage a trois is difficult to negotiate: all those jangling limbs and sensitive egos, desires and expectations clashing up against one another, all that excitement and disappointment keeping each other in check.
 












©2005 Christen Clifford and Nerve.com

ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Christen Clifford is a writer and performer in New York. Her work has appeared in Salon.com, the New York Press, and Blue. Her solo performance 17 Guys I Fucked was produced at The Culture Project and the Oni Gallery. She was the creator of HEAT: Sexy Stories and Burlesque and is currently working toward an MFA from The New School.

Commentarium (181 Comments)

Apr 12 05 - 10:51am
ted

wow. a few nice descriptions -- nice one of the child ravenously breast feeding, nice close. the rest is raw and interesting and somewhere between boldly honest and a little freaky.

Apr 12 05 - 10:52am
ted

p.s. does this resonate w/ other mothers? is this more normal than i realize?

Jun 12 12 - 9:34pm
Jessica

No. This bitch is fucked up.

Jul 15 12 - 6:00pm
ksmr

No, you're just reactionary about anything that takes you out of your comfortable little world, and badly need further education about what really goes on outside of your obviously narrow environment. Warm regards.

Jul 15 12 - 6:03pm
ksmr

P. S. And Ted, yes, this behavior is out there, more than many would realize or are comfortable discussing.

Apr 12 05 - 11:27am
lcc

I relate completely. I didn't even know all these thoughts and feelings that were going on between me and baby and dad until you expressed them. Thank you. I think things will work out fine between you and Ken. Nature thrust you into where you are now, and when your work is done, it will suck back out of you and into some other bewildered new mom, and you will be left deflated and alone and yourself and hopeful (My baby's a little older than yours). I wish you all the joy and luck!

Apr 13 05 - 12:02am

a wonderful essay.
--fellow nerve writer

Apr 12 05 - 2:16pm
SDW

>

Maybe I'm an odd momma out, but I don't relate to this at all. I find it very, very sad. What a blessing that my husband and I love each other more after three kids in fifteen months and the sex has been better now that it was pre-kids.

Apr 12 05 - 6:30pm

Hmmm. If even a third of that is common, I guess it crystallizes why I'm more than a little afraid of having kids.

Oh, in the 4th sentence from the end, it should be "...where that leaves Ken and _me._" Not "...Ken and I."

Editors? Hello?

Feb 19 11 - 9:38am
Cynthia

No the correct English as in Queens English it would be "Ken and I".

Feb 22 11 - 7:22pm
Jen

Actually, if you split it into two sentences you can see which would be correct, "me" or "I": "Where does that leave Ken?" "Where does that leave me?" You wouldn't say "Where does that leave I?"

Feb 28 12 - 4:09am
Phill

But the sentence is not split in 2. It is 1 sentence & it is correct to be "Ken and I". If you went past grade 5, you'd know that.

Apr 06 12 - 4:56pm
Christopher

When a pronoun is the direct object of the sentence, "me" is correct. "Ken and I left Felix," but "Felix left Ken and me."

Jun 01 12 - 7:45pm
Kristen

Phill,
You are wrong. Sorry. You always split a sentence in 2 to decide which pronoun to use. Alot of people think they are being really smart when they say 'Joe and I' but if they made it 2 different sentences they would see that they are wrong. Maybe you are the one who should go back to 5th grade.

Apr 12 05 - 10:31pm
tl

As a divorced father of two I found this profoundly depressing. Mother suggest she is useless as a mother, but her husband feels likewise. Both are wrong.

Children grow and need liberation from their parents. What they want is for their parents to be happy and fulfilled apart from them so that they can be who they are as well. Let us not burden our children with the weight of our frustrations. Instead, be who you are, love whom you love and let your children free.

Apr 13 05 - 1:00am
Sara

This makes me never want to have kids ever.

Apr 13 05 - 10:07am
PJC

Definitely out there!! The physical closeness is nature doing its thing. Breastfeeding ... Zing Zing!! for mom and baby. Its connection.
And all parents love their babies with the intenseness you describe, ... or they should anyway. But it is a different love. You're confusing a physical touch with human connection. You had connection with your husband, or did you? That might be the issue.

Apr 13 05 - 1:01pm
AB

I have realized in the past few years that I have never read or heard or seen anything positive about childbith ever. It all sounds horrible and life-depeleting and depressing and a total ravaging of your self, appearance, and lifestyle. The only thing that people say is "but it's so rewarding". How? You get this shit and then you get an asshole teenager who hates you and is out having all the fun you wish you were still having and then goes off to live the life you wish you could've lived but didn't because you had kids. Something is seriously wrong here. Having children should be, as I see it, a positive thing as it's, you know, uh, the continuation of the species, but somehow things have gotten fucked up and now I, as well as most of the people my age, never ever want to have children ever. I never even wanted to play with baby dolls when I was little, I was already disgusted by it. This essay is yet another assurance of birth and motherhood's horrific place in society these days. I liked it, but sometimes I wonder where the positive stuff is.

Apr 13 05 - 1:49pm
JB

I really enjoyed this story. It was honest and erotic too. Would love to be on your mailing list . Great job. I'm a lesbian but I still identified with the feelings of having a third person in your relationsip. My ex girlfriend (12 year marriage, just ended) often felt like there was a third person in our lives. It was my career. I know that doesn't compare to a human being, but we were also trying to "get pregnant" and during that time I experienced what a guy must go through because I became turned off sexually to her while she was going through numerous doctor's appointments w/ inseminations, etc. Very interesting..... !

Apr 13 05 - 11:47pm
cla

loved this essay. and i find it interesting that so many people responding here are quick to defend what kinds of mothers they are or aren't or want to be. as usual, the piece has nothing to do with them. as a first-person piece, this has real resonance about the incredible ups and downs the narrator experiences.

Apr 14 05 - 12:47pm
DP

I LOVED this article!
I 've met this cool mom/author and her beautiful baby and I know she is doing something right, eventhough it can, at all the oddest times, feels awkward and "wrong".
My little boy is 18 months and it is some mad, crazy love, and dare i say lust between us! I can not stop thinking about him, the way he feels, the way he touches me, the way he smells, the way he laughs, the way we fall asleep always touching each other somewhere, always connected. He is my man.
Our relationship almost reminds me of my first love, so innocent, so exploratory, and so all consuming. We could not stand to be apart. I know this is just for now and like you said, it will all change, but I am revelling in our "honeymoon" period.
It rips my heart wide open to think of any harm happening to my son. My pussy didn"t get ripped open (sorry to hear about all those stitches - ouch!) but a c-section knocked me on my ass and made mobility a real pain (pun intended) for weeks afterwards when i just wanted to get out of my bed by myself and walk around the apt with my new LOVE and i couldn't.
It seems like all the things, the fucking, the loving, the return to our "old" selves that we can no longer do are worth the price of admission into the coolest club I've ever wanted to join, that of being a hip, loving, crazy, caring, neurotic Mom (redundant i know).
Learning to give ourselves time to adjust to changes is the hardest part in a society and (pre-baby) mindset built around instant gratification. Before whatever or whomever I wanted to "get" I got, just by reaching out touching,charming, connecting,banging. Like a spoiled child my world was my playground and I had all the toys and playmates i could want.
Now my world, my body is my baby's playground, not my lover's, not mine.
I forked over some amount of autonomy because he really does come before me
: nature's way of maternal instinct and survival. I am a proud mamma lion and my cub's well-being is my responsibility.
When sex is your forum, your expression, your juice for so long, a kid throws all that outta whack and sets it back on a differnt track.
i appreciate the new stance i have. i am no longer a sex mongrel. I am a goddess of milk and mayhem. I crave intimacy, not anonaminty.
Everyday is something new to learn and to teach. My fiance is sexier to me now as a father than he was as a lover.
All you women who are freaked out to have a kid (by this article?!) perhaps shouldn't, but realize kids make you a wilder, calmer, crazier, version of your old tired selfish self and that in the end you become sexier because you now know life isn't all about you and how you look or how you appear .There's room enough in your heart for two very important people: you and your kid.
Childbirth quite literally and figuratively opens you up and stretches you beyond your limits. You become a bigger person, full of bigger questions and sillier answers. Sex becomes something that now you have to reinvent, to reinvestigate - it's fun, it's frustrating just like (god i hate this word) "mommyhood"!
You wrote a great article about all of it, the funny, the nasty, the sad and the real. Bravo!
xoxo

Oct 03 11 - 6:58pm
Lady Goddamn

You are one breeder brained fucktard.

May 27 12 - 3:09pm
Tess

Be ruder, please.

Jun 01 12 - 9:49pm
WTH

Child molesters deserve all kinds of rudeness and more. What if this kid grows up and finds this article? Is he supposed to be happy about his mom writing about these things? Yes, the orgasm might be a natural reaction, but you move past it, and move on to your husband instead of taking advantage of a little kid.

Apr 14 05 - 3:29am
EGP

WOW. This is intense! Thanks for managing to be being so candid while laying yourself bare, posing some valuable questions and being brave enough to share them with others not just ask them of yourself. This is a really good piece of writing.

Apr 14 05 - 2:11pm
JWCM

I really appreciated this article as I have a 15month old at home and while I'm the dad and work long hours etc...My wife is a breast feeding yoga mom and this article felt more familiar, more real, than anything else I've read in a loong time. So thank you for making me feel like I'm not alone, that WE'RE not alone because often, the intimate stuff, the stuff between the lines, never gets spoken of.

Apr 14 05 - 3:26pm
ab

yes, it does resonate with me, I have a son who is 9, and I'm here to tell you I could relate to the whole article, (except I was luckier with childbirth, I was able to do it mostly naturally with a midwife). I was as horny as I'd ever been up to the birth, then it took a couple of years for my libido to come back. I remember siting nursing my son and commenting to hubby that it was like having rough sex with a lover. You do gradually separate, and your body becomes your own again, even though it can be yanked from you in a moment, (when my son had emergency surgery when he was 5, I was pulled right back in 24/7) But I'm also here to tell you that I spent the last three years having the best sex of my life, with my husband and others, and don't think I could have gotten here without having been there.
To the people who were turned off by the intensity of the experience she describes and see this as another reason they don't want kids, there's all different kinds of ways to experiency birth and infancy, and the way you live now will inform how you do it. If your mind set is so self-involved and fearful, then it's best not to be a parent, the world will be better off.

Feb 19 11 - 9:33am
Cynthia

Bravo well said xx

Jun 06 12 - 7:23pm
SilentSaturn

**To the people who were turned off by the intensity of the experience she describes and see this as another reason they don't want kids, there's all different kinds of ways to experiency birth and infancy**

Sexual attraction to your child is not one of them.

**If your mind set is so self-involved and fearful ...**

O FUCKING RLLY? So it's NOT self-involved to fucking rub one out while your kid is sucking your nipple? Jesus fucking christ.

**.... then it's best not to be a parent, the world will be better off.**

Oh, those of us who DON'T have sexual thoughts about out children are the ones who should not have kids? And the world would be better off with more children with parents who are sexually attracted to them and perform sexual acts in their presence/with the child? Thanks for the memo!

Apr 14 05 - 3:38pm
mb

Terrific article. It's amusing that Salon and Nerve both published articles on baby-love this week, even sharing a description -starfish hands. But this one (I gave away my opinion on the other, I guess) is so crazily brave and sad. Not to bring myself into it, but here I go- it's true that what she describes is much of my hesitation about having a child. I've told my husband that if I- should I say we?- had a baby, I'd probably wind up entirely devoting myself to him or her. Yes, I'm afraid of pain, I'm poor, and I never played much with dolls, but the thought of bringing a person into existence whom you are doomed to love above everything
else is more than sobering.

Apr 14 05 - 7:27pm
js

thank you cd. although this is not my exact experience,
so much of it does resonate. you are brave and bold,
and i appreciate knowing this is not so out there as i
thought. only wish there were ways to make the transition easier. your essay will help educate.
bless you,

Apr 14 05 - 10:56pm
ek

Outstanding article Christen. For a man reading this article you really showed us a clear image. I suppose that's why my friend forwarded it to me with the subject line reading: "The best form of contraceptive."

Apr 14 05 - 11:11pm
gs

From the otherside as a now divorced father, the several subtexts that are the norm - no sex after kids, ? of love for one's partner, the enormous stress of newborns floats around with nearly no acknowledgement in the "real" world. Good to see it out of the bag even in this limited (somewhat child fearing reading audience evidenced by the feedback)world. The flip of that "natural" negative sex drive likely holds a proper place in the continuation of the species. More "love" and attention to the newborn does assure a higher likelihood our offspring make it to the difficult teenage years. Neurobiochemically this is now reasonably well studied as attachment induced with the neurotransmitter vasopressin (produced in the mom's brain during childbirth and enhanced with breastfeeding). So maybe to have less focus on "gettin' some" for awhile is biologically protective not abnormal or even "everthing's different now". The little sensual pleasures that can elicit that "guilt" are really much more natural than hedonistic especially with a baby that is all about feeling attached. Humans start out simple with enormous needs and desires and responses to love and caring. Where we end up is largely a learned response to what is presented to us from that basic need along with a few other influences. Having babies is great and natural and difficult and does force one to confront one's ability to love naturally. The difficulty of the strain of all that pushes the relationship with one's partner into a place equally unfamiliar that can easily result in "less" love as noticed here. One needs humor, patience and inner strength for that to grow with the child one brings in because if not many couples are done after 3-4 years (the average age of children in a divorce and my unfortunate but ok experience). Thanks, good story telling. How about a follow up in 2 years?

Apr 15 05 - 4:02am
JC

This feels like a continuation of the work you were presenting for Snuffload... just as compelling and even more intimate. Brava Christen! - Jen C.

Apr 15 05 - 7:21am
co

Dear Christen,
THis is a sexy, sweet, provocative confession. Thank you for writing it. My husband and enjoying a renewal of that pre-children passion that's even better than the first time around... probably because we've earned it. Our kids are 4 and 8.

Oct 02 11 - 10:39pm
Jackie

Thank goodness, if you think a mother talking about fetshizing her baby, at least your kids would be old enough to say something if you got lustful towards them.

Apr 15 05 - 11:13am

Incredible article... my son is now 8 and I recently divorced my husband. What we had never came back... I hope this is not the case for you.
Anyway congratulations on a beautifully written, raw and moving peice of writing.

Apr 15 05 - 11:50am
sdl

Your stark honesty is simply beautiful. Thank you from one mother to another.

Apr 16 05 - 12:57am
JH

I guess I could relate to this somewhat in regard to being caught up with the baby for while, though I only breast fed for 3 months. I guess my experience wasn't anywhere as extreme with recouperation and getting my sex life back. It was a new thing getting used to switching emotional gears from *mommy* to *sexpot*. I'd lay my son down for the night and end up having lots of time with my husband only to have trouble getting out of mommy mode to enjoy it like I used to. Believe me, this definitely passed after a few yrs! Our sex life is better than ever now, albeit pretty much confined to our locked bedroom unless he's at the grand parents, which is no big deal since I've made that room a comfy haven. My C-section healed quick and easy. I'm really greatful I went ahead and let them do it, since that gave them the time to make careful and precise cuts that resulted in only a small scar with dissolving stitches that is now practically invisible. I've seen emergency C's that resulted in long staple scars that were eyesores and left women immobile and took forever to heal...but for every one of those are probably twice as many who ended up like me. We had gentle sex 3 weeks after, and I was doing light workouts about 5 weeks after...which in retrospect was probably a bit early. Though I felt healed (and horny) at the time and didn't injure myself in any way, my uterus was probably still healing on the inside, so if I ever do it again I might allow myself a little more time. The biggest culprit was lack of sleep for a couple yrs, since I'd make the mistake of staying up late to finish chores or catch an extra hour or so of grown up time with my husband when my son was asleep, only to have to get up with him the next morning when my husband went to work, but all in all it was worth it to be at home with the baby and to have the grown up time when he was asleep. You can and do, with conscious effort, learn to fit a baby (and your at times seemingly all-consuming love for it) into your life without it being at the expense of your relationship if you really want to. There are as many different ways of experimenting this as there are people, so if anyone should be scared reading a tale like this, they should remind themselves that this is ONE person's experience, and their unique take on it based upon their own personality as much as anything else. For me, I healed fast with no cooch trauma, ended up with an even better sex drive than before, became closer to my husband (yes we went thru ups and downs and weird spells when I was hormonal mom of a baby), and have a beautiful and smart little boy that I can't imagine life without.

Oct 02 11 - 10:38pm
Jackie

Hopefully it will stay only this one person's experience, and incestuous longings won't be further normalized.

Apr 16 05 - 12:58am
tdf

I love this essay. Gives new meaning to motherhood. Very very smart.

Oct 02 11 - 10:37pm
Jackie

It gives a disturbing meaning to motherhood. A new meaning, not a positive one, a unhealthy one.

Apr 15 05 - 1:32pm
LMF

You do realize that someday your kid is going to read this and be totally disgusted, right? For his sake, I hope it's not until he's past junior high. This article has the potential to make his life a living hell when he's a teenager.

Also, re: "I knew that no one has sex for months after having a baby (except teenagers, my doctor told me)," your doctor is full of shit. Or an idiot.

Apr 15 05 - 4:16pm
mw

hot diggity! it's about time the weird mommy-i-love-you sexual undertones were discussed. kudos! you should get a pulitzer if you expand to this 200+ pages.

Oct 02 11 - 10:37pm
Jackie

You seem awfully excited about a article alluding to a mother having sexual feelings towards her son...

Mar 27 12 - 3:02pm
Lord J.

There's little wrong with feelings. She isn't abusing her child & if you think she is then you need to look 'abuse' up in the dictionary. I suppose you think it wrong for her to even feel sexually aroused during coitus & conception of the child. People like to forget that children are made throw sex. Sex is taboo that's why it doesn't permeate many aspects of western society especially the parts to do with children. That doesn't put your doctrines above rational reasoning. If it's natural & it doesn't hurt anybody (mentally or physically) & you aren't being forced to participate in something you don't want to then there's nothing wrong with it.

Apr 15 05 - 5:35pm
jvc

how utterly exciting to read something that strips back all the crap and says "this is how it is". i started having babies at 22, and now, at 39, have 4. the two strongest and most changeable threads running through my life are 1) the intense physical and emotional passion i have for my children (especially, right now, for my 2 year old... omg, i could eat him alive!) and 2) my "mojo". just when i think my sexual self is but a ghost it starts to take shape and form and demands as much attention as my toddler. how beautiful to be able to write your way through it!

Apr 15 05 - 5:42pm
TR

I thought this article was so perfect. I nursed my son and I felt all of the things she described. It's nice to know I'm not a wierdo.

Oct 02 11 - 10:36pm
Jackie

You are a weirdo, just because another weirdo was stupid enough to post about it, doesn't make you any less of a weirdo.

May 27 12 - 3:13pm
Tess

And clearly just because ignorant people make asses out of themselves on this site, that doesn't seem to deter you from doing the same thing.

Apr 15 05 - 6:58pm
c

this was very depressing. i'm sorry, but it was. i left my husband when my daughter was 1 1/2. we had sex once after she was born, then never again. he totally fell apart. now she's 10, i have a boyfriend of 5 plus years, it's the best sex ever and i keep him separate from my kid. i don't have the energy to take care of him and her at the same time. motherhood, it turns out, is fulfilling and thankless at the same time. it's like after you've had your baby, you've kind of done your job genetically and the earth doesn't need you anymore.

Oct 02 11 - 10:36pm
Jackie

That reminds me of a documentary about animals, where they talked about how the mother Octopus once she has her babies dies shortly after. It's so sad. :'(

Apr 16 05 - 8:33am

Appears there are two camps of women here. Ones who become consumed by their babies and their partnerships/marriages suffer and probably end as a result. And ones who find a balance between romantic love and parental love. If you are scared of how a baby changes things, just ask yourself am I/is my partner balanced? Your yes or no answer to that question will also answer if you should have kids.

Apr 17 05 - 2:02pm
BML

Dear Christen, Many thanks for the honesty. I'm an old dude and a father and grandfather.
All my life I've been a little confused about my place in a relationship with my former hot lover, then changed into "mommy." I know it's a little late, but I think I finally understand why she became what she became. I say it's late because she's been gone a long time (Virginia Slims), and my daughter is 47. Maybe I can help her with some of her demons, thanks to you.

Apr 18 05 - 8:53am
G.B.

We are so "into" free expression we can't draw any lines anymore, but no, this is not normal.

Let me be more specific: It IS normal to love your child in an all-consuming way; it is not normal to have no desire to protect their innocence, and to use them as an object for your sexual pleasure. That is very abnormal and yes, sick. (I speak as a new mother myself.)

The author, to her credit, has a lot of self-awareness to realize that this is the mentality which leads to the abuse of children. She needs to get help, and I hope she does soon.

Her relationship with her husband is the least of her problems, IMO.

Apr 18 05 - 9:44am
km

Thanks to Christen Clifford for telling it like it is. Great article.

Apr 19 05 - 1:03am
ML

I just loved this piece... Honest, hilarious, completely revealing. I'm astounded to find (reading other comments here) that a few folks find CC's perspective sick or odd--everything she describes is utterly natural and even beautiful, if a little painful. Hell, if kids didn't go through all that Oedipal/Electra BS we would never become individuals!! Parents "lust" after their children--get over it! THANK YOU CC!

Sep 11 11 - 8:14pm
...

"Parents "lust" after their children--get over it!" -- Well actually, most normal people (i.e.not most of of those who find themselves here, clearly) DO NOT, clearly it's much easier for them to admit with such a beautiful and concise representation. Frankly I think you appreciators all need AN AWFUL LOT of psychiatric help, you sick fucking freaks!!

Apr 20 05 - 5:35pm
EVE

" I would never abuse my child, but I understand a little those who do."

Maybe the problem with Mrs. Clifford's sex life with her husband has more to do with the fact that he is creeped out by her rather than the state of her post-childbirth vagina.

"I want to be a model of erotic love for Felix to learn from."

Ew. And ew again. As a mother of three, I have NO interest in being a model of erotic anything for my children. Is it healthy for them to witness my husband and I being in love with each other? Yes. But do I want them to view me as some sort of role-model for their future sexuality? No. And judging from this article, Christen Clifford has some obvious skeevy need to shove her sexuality down her infant son's tiny starfish throat, oblivious and uncaring to the fact that her son doesn't NEED or WANT to view her as an "erotic role model." The kid just wants to eat. Using nourishing your child with breastmilk as an added kink to your solo-sex-toy-sessions is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. As a prior feedback poster stated, I certainly hope young Felix doesn't stumble across this article when he's old enough to read, I sincerely doubt Nerve paid you enough for this child abuse confession disguised as hipster doofus smut lit to afford the future therapy bills.

"In my mind, I can fuzzily see the progression from our innocent play to abuse."

Not to worry, you've all ready crossed that line. That poor, poor baby.

Sep 11 11 - 8:08pm
...

Absolutely fkn agreed. "Maybe the problem with Mrs. Clifford's sex life with her husband has more to do with the fact that he is creeped out by her rather than the state of her post-childbirth vagina. " -- Had to LOL :D
On a more serious note, I'm wondering how many males child abusers are currently wanking over this story. So nice that she doesn't mind catering for them too, isn't it? Where are social services when you need em?

Oct 02 11 - 10:29pm
Jackie

Great, you made me have to go get the bucket, hope you're happy. j/k

Apr 23 05 - 12:10am
GB

Way to go, Eve! You said it like it is. There don't seem to be many
sane people in this chatroom, or maybe they are sane but just don't
have children and don't know what's normal.

Re: the person who said "baby lust" is normal and I need to get over it, you are partially right: it is normal to feel an all-consuming love for your baby. That's what enables us to change their diapers, wake up four times a night when they're colicy, even sometimes pick their nose for them (who knew that this could be fun?) Things that would be gross and intolerable when it comes to other people's kids are just peachy when it comes to our own. And that's the way it should be. If we didn't love them in such an all-consuming way, how could we do this stuff? All-consuming mother love is necessary for the survival of the generations,
I think.

But using your baby as a masturbatory object?! That is, I would submit,
a totally different thing. That is not about unconditional giving, or love of the baby at all. Actually it is about love of yourself--and to a ridiculous, sick degree.

Someone asked if this is normal and commented that this made them not want to have children. If this essay makes you not want to have kids, then you don't realize how profoundly abnormal the author is (and perhaps you have your own issues too). I don't want to sound judgmental, but for the sake of the other commentators who are considering not having children based on this essay, I must say that the author is obviously extremely immature, and was not ready to bring a child into this world. Unfortunately for her baby, she did anyway.

As far as writing is concerned, she is a good writer. But as far as the psychological dynamic of her family is concerned, if she doesn't get help soon, then I think she needs to seriously consider giving this baby up for
adoption.

Eve, if you would like to discuss this "offline" (or anyone else) please
write to me at gilab@yahoo.com.

Apr 23 05 - 12:12am
GB

oops, I misstyped, sorry. (I have a baby on my lap and
am typing with one hand! :-)

My e-dress is actually gilab1975@yahoo.com

Apr 22 05 - 6:55pm
ted

it seems to me some people commenting below are not giving the author credit for being aware of the fact that some of responses to child approach crossing a line she doesn't want to cross. isn't this something that many homosapiens experience? people are capable of bad things, and its easy to pretend you could never do something you shouldn't do but more honest and interesting to address that moment. wars demonstrate that the vast majority of males are capable of killing others when instructed to do so as part of a herd. Sanctimonious "oh god that's awful" responses to any acknowledgment of human frailty and failure and yes, immaturity, will not help us better understand the human condition. in other words EVE and others below, lighten up. it is confessional, that's the point. if there is not something shameful about that which is confessed, it really isn't confession, is it?

Apr 23 05 - 4:43am
EVE

By all means "ted," let's lighten up! It's just a confession about abusing her child! Nothing serious! And for those dear readers who don't find what Mrs. Clifford did/wrote about/confessed to "abusive", let's consider for a moment that it was Mr. Clifford who wrote the "article." (I'm just still having such a hard time understanding which Nerve editorial bozo found the piece fit for publication. Hey! I'm going to mail a piece of paper smeared with excrement to Nerve and I can get that published too!) Let's say that "Baby Love" was written by a father who became so aroused by the love of his child that he jerked off while holding him/her. What would be your reaction then? Because it happens every day, every minute, and IT IS CHILD ABUSE. Nah "ted," I'm not going to lighten up when I read something like this. I'm not going to suddenly decide that using your child as a sexual plaything is OK. Yes, "people are capable of bad things." And I, like most humans, feel a sense of anger and sadness when I read about "bad things" being committed against fellow humans, and animals, AND especially children. Felix didn't have a choice if he wanted to be enjoying his supper while his mother whipped out her vibrator and did her thing. And I think that sums up most of the article. Christen Clifford doesn't view, or treat, her child as a PERSON. And if she asks her son in 20 years if he was cool with her doing that, I'm pretty positive the answer will be no. Let's think about Mrs. Clifford writing that she wonders if it's "wrong to encourage him (Felix) to touch himself." If MY spouse attempts to get one of our children to touch themselves sexually, well, I don't think murder would be that too far from my mind. Having sexual feelings towards your children is NOT a normal reaction. It just isn't. Christen Clifford needs therapy. Felix will need therapy. Ken needs a divorce and full custody. And Nerve needs to stop publishing such stupid articles. C'mon! Would they have published an article about a man masturbating while holding his ten year old daughter?! No. But it's OK because Christen Clifford is a mother holding her infant son and that somehow isn't as offensive as the prior scenario. Abuse is abuse is abuse, even under the guise of all-consuming mommy love.

Feb 19 11 - 9:25am
Cynthia

Again we have a NARROW MINDED ZEALOT whom didn't even read the article correctly for if you did you would have read that her "Whipping out her vibrator and doing her thing" is a mis-quote and did not happen if you re-read the article you will see that her attempt was foiled by the Fed-ex man and she never tried again! I can understand your knee jerk reaction but i am more calculating and read an atricle properly before commenting! You see there's hundreds of times where knee-jerk reactions like yours has led to someone being villified or even murdered and all because the origional story was not read through properly! After 4 children all breast fed in which I had many an impromtu orgasm (I did not masturbate they just happened) I never tied any sexuality into my children and they have all grown to be great kids! So lighten up and give the auther the credit she is due! I hope you do send excrement to Nerve and that everyone there does the same and sends it righ back to you!

Apr 24 05 - 4:31pm
stj

eve, i think you are being a litle melodramatic. child abuse? sexually stimulating a child is child abuse; a mother getting aroused during breast feeding is not. She may be guilty of a thought crime, but if we start locking people up for errant thoughts there will not be many people left on the street. Think of all the mothers who hire 24/7 nannies and deny their children the basic affection they require -- that all too normal parenting behavior deserves your ALL CAPS wrath more than the behavior described by the author.

Apr 25 05 - 11:58am
EVE

Nu-uh. She was not simply "getting aroused by breastfeeding." One of her creep-o-riffic pals "turned" her onto the idea of masturbating while nursing.
"

Oct 02 11 - 10:24pm
Jackie

So it's her friends fault? Perhaps her friend's fault for not realizing she was talking to a nymphomaniac that will masturbate to anything that moves, or doesn't like the coffee table.

Apr 26 05 - 12:18am

Maybe she wanted to be "caught". Answering the door with a vibrator in hand instead of her keys seems to have been her way of forcing herself to stop her unusual/abusive behavior. I don't think it was an accident.

Oct 02 11 - 10:23pm
Jackie

Sounds more like she's trying to get people to relate to her embarrasement. "Come on ya'll ladies, know what it's like answering FedEx with a vibe in your crotch!"

Apr 26 05 - 12:37am
stj

is child abuse defined by the experience of "perpetrator" or the experience of the "abused" ? if the child's experience is not changed, what makes it abuse? there are too many real problems in the world for you to be throwing around that phrase in this context. read the comments below from the beginning -- your response is shrill and outside the norm.

Jun 04 12 - 12:01am
Kristine

Sooo, if a child is drugged and fondled, and is not raped, made pregnant, or given an STD, it's "okay"? Sugar, a crime IS defined by the perpetrator's behavior. A robbery is a robbery is a robbery, even if the robber steals Monopoly money. Your comment is irrational special pleading, not logic.

Apr 26 05 - 12:53am
LMF

The abuse isn't just the act but telling the world about it in a forum that the child or his future friend or tormenters might find in the future. Would YOU want to know that one of your parents used you as a masturbatory aid?

Oct 02 11 - 10:19pm
Jackie

I don't think anyone would. That's even worse then walking in on your parents in the act.

Mar 27 12 - 3:35pm
Lord J.

What's wrong with walking in on your parents in the act? That's how you/they were made.

Apr 25 05 - 1:10pm
EVE

is child abuse defined by the experience of "perpetrator" or the experience of the "abused" ? if the child's experience is not changed, what makes it abuse?

Good God. Are you serious? Just because her child's experience with nursing wasn't "changed" doesn't make it any less abusive. What about severely retarded children who are raped? Is it OK for them to be abused because they aren't fully aware of what is going on?

Oct 02 11 - 10:15pm
Jackie

Dude, you just gave me nightmares, and I'm a somewhat avid horror film watcher.

Apr 25 05 - 7:03pm
AP

I was absolutely riveted by Christen Clifford's article "Baby Love". I think it is incredibly brave and generous of her to share her experience with such honesty, intelligence, wit and compassion. I feel she has done a great service to women and men by making her experience available and I am filled with admiration for her as a writer and human.

Oct 02 11 - 10:15pm
Jackie

Would it be brave for a father to talk about his incestuous feelings towards his daughter too?

Oct 03 11 - 7:06pm
Lady Goddamn

I am filled with shame for her as a misanthrope and human.

Sep 24 05 - 6:23pm
km

Pretty wild and bold. It's scary to talk about sexuality in relation to children, in any way, given the culture of abuse we live in and the increased awareness of it. Its so easy to be frightened by things I feel and wonder if they're normal or just another manifestation of my psychosis. It's really good to hear another person say those things, and out loud for us all to hear! Not that it makes it okay, its just that there are more people out there who have felt similar things they couldn't explain.

Oct 02 11 - 10:14pm
Jackie

You mentioned psychosis. It's normal to be frightened by the thought of a mother abusing her child, it's psychotic to convince yourself that it's anywhere near normal.

Apr 28 08 - 11:12pm
mg

Hello,
I wrote a response to this article on my blog, www.majorgeneralist.com.

I said that people like Christen Clifford are being open about the most difficult aspects of becoming a parent, and I believe she should be commended. This kind of article is getting to the core of what it means to be human, and we are lucky to live in a day and age when we can participate in this kind of social dialog. It can only make us feel better about who we are as people, and as a result, presumably become better parents.

Oct 02 11 - 10:13pm
Jackie

So being human means fantasizing about sex with your young? Sounds more like animal lust to me.

Jun 27 09 - 12:56am
mc

This is a beatifully written article. Cristin did nothing wrong. she did not abuse her baby. I know all you right wing hypacrites want to think your above humanity, but sadly you're not. Cristen was well aware of not crossing her boundaries and told a beautiful heartwarming story, about motherhood.Get over yourselves and thank-you Christen for sharing something so personal.

Oct 02 11 - 10:13pm
Jackie

Most people have a hard time getting over the idea of someone abusing their child. That is normal.

Sep 07 09 - 7:32am
CG

I really enjoyed reading this, it was so honest and interesting and talked about things that I have never heard anybody have the guts to talk about before. Thank you.

Oct 02 11 - 10:12pm
Jackie

That's because sain people, know that pedophilic longings aren't appropriate to discuss.

Dec 02 11 - 5:44pm
K

You're a fucktard. Spell much?

Feb 26 10 - 1:45pm
DF

I just stumbled across this article while researching breastfeeding, and I do not know if I have ever been so disturbed.....I hope that you sought out some help.....Take Care

Sep 11 11 - 7:59pm
...

Agreed!

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Sep 02 10 - 12:11am
jane Mason

Children's right to safety, protection, the meeting of all their needs especially pure love, not confused (The Italian and greek languages as main ones have different words for the types of love, for the father, the wife, your children etc.. in Italian and Spanish there are approx 100 different words for love. The sexual desire you may think is natural- which is sick, disturbing, can speak from personal experience is not sexual or sensual- comes from your Uterus shrinking fom the size at Birth back to the size of a Fig is stimulated by breastfeeding and causes contractions to reduce it's size. This is the reason there are nerves between your nipples and uterus. I found that experience quite painful with razorblade like sensations on let downs. Seeing children sexually ruins them, is disturbed, they are not yours-like a dog, children to have rights individually and are not yours to abuse and your thoughts alone need therapy, jealousy of your husband. What you said about that book- What's the title and author who says it's common for father's to become aroused by their children- my husband is gobsmacked. Go to a therapist, see a working girl with your husband or go to a swingers party when you have babysitters, lock and set up a kinky room, masturbating while feeding your child is sick, I can make love to my husband from 2wks after c-sections with a sleeping baby or even camping with our older boy when he was in the other section but could never even masturbate in the same room. This site is encouraging pedophilia and you should be ashamed of all the children who are at risk because of it. It is never ok to sexualise a child. When they are of age they will find real experiences and you need to support him in his relationships when he grows up. You have already abused your son. I hope you know should you continue you wear everyone who reads this and thinks it's ok and your son will never ever have a normal life. Even if by some miracle the State don't take him he will be so messed up and traumatised he will not have a normal life, will suffer hugely increased likelihood of either becoming a deviant himself or never trusting anyone or having a relationship as your role is screwed up. His chances of drug addiction, leving home young, repeating the cycle or commiting suicide. Get some help for you and your son now before your husband is forced to choose between you and your son as It is your responsibility to protect him always and you haven't been honest with him about the extent of your problems. I'd be suprised if you were not an abuse victim, it is so rare for women to not break the cyclle and be the best mum's but if your mum was involved... Please get help now, hypnotherapy, prayer. I want you to read this and see it as a cry for you to heal yourself and save your innocent non sexual child. Baby's... My god, a woman. You just need to get serious help, please read this, it was read at my children's baptism and my first born S.I.D.S. funeral. Please lost woman, seek help wherever5 it comes from. Children are divine but never ever sexual. Enjoyment of massage; great, appreciation of your creation; beautiful but they are their own person. I'm a mother and breastfed my son for 4 yrs for health reasons and convenience and he is now a smart well adjusted 8yr old. I also have a 1 yr old girl and found your honesty about everything else well written but the rest disturbingly sick. As Kahlil Gibran says in The Prophet "Your children are not your children but the children of life's longing for itself. They come through you but belong not to you. They are the sons and daughters of the future and you cannot go there even in your dreams. You may strive to be like them but seek not to make them like you. Children are living arrows sent forth from The Archer's hand that they may go swift and far. As the Archer loves his children so he loves the bow that is steady."
Sincerely
Jane Mason

Feb 19 11 - 9:16am
Cynthia

Jane you have no right to cast such repressive rantings against the auther! WHERE in the story did it say she put feelings into actions? WHERE in the story did it tell you she was abusing her child? This story was purely her slant on becoming a new mother and the chaos it caused in her personal life, The bond of a breastfeeding mother is the strongest of any bond! I was very turned on while breastfeeding all 4 of my children I even had orgasms whilst feeding and that was without touching myself! Some women are so sexual that they can become orgasmic riding the subway! To put YOUR NARROW MINDED rantings onto this auther as sexual abuse is fanatical she has been open and honest and i think you are just jealous of her honisty!!

Oct 02 11 - 10:11pm
Jackie

Repressive, we're talking about a woman who has no shame at visiting what seems to be her repressed and dysfunctional issues about sex on to her son. Also, please, keep your baby related orgasms to yourself. It's sick.

Oct 03 11 - 7:09pm
Lady Goddamn

Well Cynthia, you need to take YOUR FAT ASS out of here because your misspellings and grammatically incorrect rantings that try to justify this disgusting act of child abuse are officially searing my retinas.

Oct 01 10 - 6:14pm
keymaker

Hello boys, I am Sandra and I want to write my little commentary. I am want to place your text at my personal blog, with link to your blog. Is it normal for your? give to me your answer, please.

Oct 28 10 - 6:26pm
LIMBO

I WAS SOMEWHAT SURPRISED THAT SHE DIDN'T MASTURBATE HER LITTLE SON LIKE SO MANY DO THROUGHOUT ASIA. IT IS STRANGE THAT NONE OF THE MOMS WHO MENTIONED OF BEING THE PARENTS OF LITTLE BOYS MADE NO MENTION OF MASTURBATING THEIR INFANT SONS EITHER.

Nov 07 10 - 12:04pm
Keygen

Man, you wrote a long text.

Jan 09 11 - 6:46pm
cindy l.

YOU SHOULD ALSO ADMIT THAT IS IS PEDOPHILIA when a baby or child comes into physical contact with an adult during breastfeeding and causes the adult to feel lust and sexually arousal.

Jan 09 11 - 6:53pm
cindy l.

YOU SHOULD ALSO STOP HIDING FROM THE TRUTH AND ADMIT THAT IS IS PEDOPHILIA when a baby or child comes into physical contact with a woman during breastfeeding and causes the woman to feel lust and sexual arousal. Such women should be labelled as PEDOPHILES because thats precisely what they are and it seems nature wants them to be because breastfeeding in natural.

Jan 09 11 - 6:54pm
cindy l.

YOU SHOULD ALSO STOP HIDING FROM THE TRUTH AND ADMIT THAT IS IS PEDOPHILIA when a baby or child comes into physical contact with a woman during breastfeeding and causes the woman to feel lust and sexual arousal. Such women should be labelled as PEDOPHILES because thats precisely what they are and it seems nature wants them to be because breastfeeding is natural.

Jan 09 11 - 6:59pm
cindy l.

YOU SHOULD ALSO STOP HIDING FROM THE TRUTH AND ADMIT THAT IS IS PEDOPHILIA when a baby or child comes into physical contact with a woman during breastfeeding and causes the woman to feel lust and sexual arousal. Such women should be labelled as PEDOPHILES because thats precisely what they are and it seems nature wants them to be because breastfeeding is natural.

Jan 09 11 - 7:00pm
Cindy l.

YOU SHOULD ALSO STOP HIDING FROM THE TRUTH AND ADMIT THAT IT IS PEDOPHILIA when a baby or child comes into physical contact with a woman during breastfeeding and causes the woman to feel lust and sexual arousal. Such women should be labelled as PEDOPHILES because thats precisely what they are and it seems nature wants them to be because breastfeeding is natural.

Feb 19 11 - 9:08am
Cynthia

Cindy you are narrow minded and sorely mistaken! 8-10 women feel some sexual arousal during breast feeding! If you read the story clearly you can see that she NEVER actually had sexual urges towards the baby just that she loved him so much it was almost sexual! You are the knee-jerk type of person that used to hold lynchings or burn women as witches!

Oct 02 11 - 10:10pm
Jackie

If it was a father discussing the same feelings towards his daughter, would you be starting a witch hunt, calling him a pedophile? Think about it, if you would, you are a sexist and a hypocrite.

Oct 03 11 - 7:10pm
Lady Goddamn

Cynthia needs synonyms for narrow minded and knee jerk reaction.

Feb 08 11 - 7:55pm
Jerry

Let me try to remember the law...Oh yea, if a kid gave a man a back rub and he became sexually aroused he would get 20 years in the slammer but women get a free pass in pedophilia during breastfeeding.

Oct 02 11 - 10:09pm
Jackie

As in everywhere else. Don't you know cougars, are the cutesy term for female pedophiles now.

Feb 18 11 - 1:23am
payton

It's really provoking point of view.

Feb 18 11 - 7:25am
sidney

Whay are you don't write about politic?

Feb 19 11 - 9:04am
Andrew

If I had read this before i had children I would have thought 'She's weird', But now as a father of 2 boys everything in this article resonates fully! Like the time i was gently stroking my wifes breast as she bathed my number 2 son (18 months at the time) came into the bathroom and started crying because daddy was touching his mummy's Noo Noo (his words for breasts!) From that moment on until he stopped feeding about a year later he watched me like a circling hawk! When he couldn't check up on me he would ask if daddy had been stealing is Noo Noo! I started to feel like he was a third man in our relationship! But the experts were right as soon as he weened some normailty returned and now they are 11 and 5 our sexlife has retuned with a vengence better dare I say than when we first got together! Thank you for the interesting and thought provoking story!!

Sep 11 11 - 7:57pm
...

Mmm.. funny how your own child can turn you into a child molester eh. I suppose it's ok to fondle your wife in front of your son when he can communicate. What a nice memory that would be.

Oct 02 11 - 10:09pm
Jackie

So you're saying you weren't enough of a man, to not associate your wife's breast as your son being possessive of her sexually? Or that a 18 month son, rules over you? Grow some balls.

Feb 19 11 - 2:23pm
serialpost

Are you know mr Donovan?

Jun 28 11 - 3:16am
www.nerve.com

Www nerve.. Nice :)

Aug 20 11 - 1:17am
Birdy

This was beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Makes me want to have children.

Oct 02 11 - 10:07pm
Jackie

You mean it makes you want to have a sex toy. As she sees her child as a sex toy. If you thought this was beautiful, you're no less sick than her.

Jun 03 12 - 2:39am
Tano

Could not agree more.

Aug 22 11 - 2:01am
rtyecript

I really liked the article, and the very cool blog

Aug 24 11 - 11:13am
rtyecript

I really liked the article, and the very cool blog

Sep 07 11 - 5:01am
Disgusted

You are a sick, twisted person... Your child should be taken from you... You are one step away from abusing your child you disgusting vile perverted thing.

Sep 11 11 - 7:55pm
...

OK, I thought you were a little odd in the beginning, but going that far, I'm sorry but I cannot even read any more. Actually I don't believe such a genuinely sick person would even speak of such. How on earth did you decide this would be a good read? I mean, it's clear you're quite deviant when it comes to sex but you really need to ditch this delusion that *that* acceptable. Disgusting bitch.

Sep 11 11 - 8:19pm
...

Actually this is just sick magazing bullshit / experiments on people.

Oct 02 11 - 10:06pm
Jackie

Would this have been published if it was a father talking about his daughter like this? No. Why is it okay then to have a mother, talk about how she can sort of understand people who abuse their children? Why isn't her child in the custody of CPS right now before she rapes him? So Nerve, are you going to be supporting a generation of pedophile mothers?

Mar 27 12 - 3:56pm
Lord J.

Uh, women can't rape dudes - duh.

Oct 02 11 - 10:21pm
Hellvica

This makes me damn proud to be childfree. It's just one more nudge telling me I'm going down the right path.
What a rabid mooooooo.

Oct 02 11 - 10:42pm
Jackie

I'm amazed so many people thought an article of a mother relating her sexual interest in her baby, and even admitting to kind of understanding child abusers, such positive support. Maybe things have gotten so bad in our society, that mothers can't do anything wrong..even if it means sexualizing their own sons. If you read this story, and it was about a father having these feelings towards his daughter, I'm sure you'd be disgusted and believe he was a closeted pedophile. Why does gender matter so much, that if a woman has the same feelings for her son that's okay. You all who supported this, should recognize you have supported and normalized a sexual relationship between a mother and her son.

Mar 27 12 - 4:02pm
Lord J.

You have to be kidding yourself to ignore that it's different between mothers & their children than it is with fathers. The mother carried the child for 9 months & mothers breastfeed their children. Fathers do neither of these things, so both parents cannot be judged equally - duh.
Also a woman/mother is incapable of raping a child like a man/father is. So your claim that people are being sexist is invalid.

Aug 12 12 - 4:04pm
Ange

You can't be so stupid that you think a female can't rape a male. Go back into your cave until you actually learn a thing or two about the world.

Oct 05 11 - 5:10pm
Whocares

You are a skank and a whore, that's what you are. And you are going to spill your dirty diseases all over your baby, too.

Oct 06 11 - 8:34pm
Nokids

Yuck. This article is disgusting. This has to be one of the distasteful pieces of writing that I have ever read!

Oct 25 11 - 2:34am
Serena

This article thoroughly terrifies me. I don't know who started the rumor that sexualizing your infant child is normal, but frankly that's appalling and disgusting. The fact that this woman has written these horrible things down and posted them on the internet is horrifying all on its own (if this was a man, by the way, everyone would be screaming "child abuse"), but to read all these comments supporting her? I fear for this child and sincerely hope that this sick fetish passes quickly. This is not a healthy relationship for anyone involved, especially for the child. This is not brave or bold; it's not even particularly good writing. It is disgusting, full stop. This sort of demented obscenity should not be rewarded.

Dec 30 11 - 7:59pm
gwallan

You've clearly noticed the brazen nature of this article. Believe me when I say the shameless nature of it AND many of the responses are most the most chilling thing to me. They they see no wrong AND are willing to express this publicly. It tells us a great deal about the permissiveness of our communities toward sexual abuse committed by women. The tragedy is that, as many counsellors and therapists will tell you, female perpetrators tend to do more long term harm to their victims. The extroadinary permissiveness on display here is a significant contributor to that harm.

Mar 27 12 - 4:07pm
Lord J.

I'm glad society isn't as corrupt as you'd like it to be. Freedom of speech is a right which when utilised doesn't get you arrested...most of the time thankfully.

May 22 12 - 7:59am
gwallan

Thankfully using a child as a sex toy will get you arrested. At least most of the time.

Dec 04 11 - 10:33am
david

To "jackie" who has like 22 post on here....we all know where you stand on this, ok? why not give it a fucking rest, lay off the bitchin and and stop trying to be the morality police for everybody.

Dec 28 11 - 5:13am
gwallan

I'll make you happy and keep it to a couple then.

I'm involved in the administration of sexual assault related services. I am obliged to report instances of child sexual abuse of which I become aware. I shall be reporting this published admission to the appropriate authorities.

Dec 07 11 - 7:33pm
Lexie

Found this article while researching what has gone on in my life. My breasts have always been an erotic area of my body. My husband would squeeze my nipples during intercourse and I'd always cum. 4 months after birth I began to become aroused while I breast fed I began masturbating while feeding my daughter at nap time. I felt guilty at first and would swear to not do it again but always did. A few months later in the morning hours I brought her in bed to feed. My husband was awake and began kissing my shoulder. I moved my body against his and we had sex while she fed. It was the hardest orgasm I had ever had. I began feeding her during sex often until she was about three. It was amazing!

Dec 10 11 - 2:17pm
T.J.

that's the hottest, most erotic thing i've ever heard....wow

Dec 24 11 - 5:28am
molester

I been seein a married mother of 3 two girls 1 boy. Her toddler she just had 7mo ago, husband don't touch her anymore. I been lettin this 42yr old 300lb blk mommy breastfeed her 8yr old foster daughter as I fuck, her 8yr old is chubby with full c cup tits. I'm currently in the babys rm, she watches as I put my cock through the bars of crib as mama watches her little girl hold me lika baby bottle suckin it! I was caught a few nights ago in babys crib just as I ripped off her. black toddlers diaper, this obese mama said yes please hump her baby that is too dark and fat ass, she joins in as i abused her daughter in her daycare center, 300lb mature blk & wht mommys enjoy breastfeeding while I lick their babys bootys & slide in2 infants bearback moms wifes daughters. Still lookin 2 tear in2 a newborn licking mud outta a babys poop shoot. Crawling to get away from me I luv to run behind ur daughter reach dwn just ripping off her Elmo diaper drop low & thrust bearback holdin little chubby girls mouth untill I deposit spunk without a condom! 2152877115 call anytime I'm chester

Dec 24 11 - 5:50am
ladys call me Horse

I'm flexable I can put my legs behind my head layin dwn & suck my own cock!! Watch. I been lettin my rottweiller lick pb off my cock balls and asshole! Luv 2 have mature woman married or single drop a hot one squat over my mouth like this adopted african 4yr old! Moms said I hate that foul mouth daughter of mine, 4yr olds say fuck u mommy untill mommy wa bltch as their fucked and beat as mom gets off screamin to snap her tiny mini gash untill blk babys limp! 2152877115 chester dnt use condoms!

Dec 25 11 - 6:06pm
Um

Pedophile.

Dec 26 11 - 1:34am
MikeFromCanada

This is twisted.

How would all of society react if a man was masturbating while feeding his child? And here, a pack of mothers praising this kind of behavior. It's disgusting.

Dec 28 11 - 7:10pm
Janice

Oxytocin is a hormone that is produced while breastfeeding and can cause arousal. Many woman just get exhausted from breastfeeding and the whole ordeal but many and many more than you think become aroused at some point during breastfeeding. It is in fact due to a hormone called Oxytocin but you people are trying to turn what is natural and normal into some sort of witch hunt calling these women pedo's. Shame on you and our sick society always looking for the worst.

Dec 30 11 - 7:14pm
gwallan

If you are using your infant as a part of your own sexual gratification then you are very much a paedophile.

I know our culture indoctrinates everybody with the idea that women cannot be paedophiles. Unfortunately it's a myth mostly created by gender politics. Female paedophiles show up in research at least as far back as the sixties.

Janice you can try to shame me all you like but in this field I know my stuff. I work with victims and see the harm and pain they endure. You are not only reading the words of paedophiles you are defending them. Shame be upon YOU.

Mar 27 12 - 4:21pm
Lord J.

Why not acknowledge that many mothers become aroused at some point during breastfeeding, due to a hormone called Oxytocin, meaning that they are not freaks or abnormal? In fact this is a normal, natural, internal impromptu, automatic reaction that occurs within the body.
So breastfeeding & the hormonal reactions that accompany it does not equal using your infant for sexual gratification. Comprendè?

Jan 24 12 - 5:54pm
Mary

Gwallan you're full of sh. Facts, Breastfeeding has a sexual element as a result of physiological factors. In a study conducted in 1999, approximately 33 to 50 percent of mothers found breast feeding erotic, and among them 25 percent felt guilty because of this.[3] This study corroborated a study in 1949 that found that in a few cases where the arousal was strong enough to induce orgasm, some nursing mothers abandon breast feeding altogether.[3] In a 1988 questionnaire on orgasm and pregnancy published in a Dutch magazine for women, asked "Did you experience, while breastfeeding, a sensation of sexual excitement?"; Thirty-four percent (or 153 total) answered in the affirmative. An additional 71 percent answered in the affirmative when asked "Did you experience, while breastfeeding, pleasurable contractions in the uterine region.

Feb 10 12 - 6:05pm
gwallan

Mary, the author of this article is doing far more than breast feeding. Experiencing a physiological reaction is one thing. This individual is using her child as an aid to masturbation. Huge difference.

Mar 27 12 - 4:27pm
Lord J.

The infant feeds naturally, it isn't being forced to do anything that will harm it.
Having INVOLUNTARY orgasms while breastfeeding doesn't affect the child negatively, just like breastfeeding without involuntary orgasms wouldn't.

Apr 17 12 - 7:44am
gwallan

Sorry, but the paedophile author is not having "involuntary" orgasms by accident.

Feb 24 12 - 11:34pm
Jon

I masturbate to my wife masturbating while she breastfeeds our twin boys. I hold one up to her left breast and she holds one up to her right breast. We each have a hand free to pleasure ourselves.

Is that cool? Or are only women allowed to masturbate while holding their children?

May 22 12 - 4:19pm
Lee

OP, that is a very unhealthy and absurd view of your infant child. Children, especially infants, are NOT inherently sexual and it is not normal to be turned on by your infant. I understand if the stimulation of your nipples coupled with the release of oxytocin aroused you on a physical level. However, because of this simple coincidence you seem to be viewing your child as a source of sexual pleasure, and from that point have erroneously concluded that your child is inherently sexual. As the mother of an innocent and dependent child, it was your responsibility to not make this mistake. At best, this absurd view of your child will alter the way you see him for as long as you have it and you will not be able to hide it from him. Parents are supposed to have a platonic feelings for their children and sometimes romantic feelings for each other, not the other way around. At worst, as you admitted, this mentality is the precursor to blatant sexual abuse. Considering that you did not differentiate between a biological reaction and the nature of your child, it would not surprise me if you made the leap to molester in the future. I sincerely hope you have better judgement when it comes to this matter.

Jun 01 12 - 6:20pm
yeah

the mother as pedophile....

Jun 01 12 - 9:13pm
Swarley

This is beyond disgusting. Pedophiles.

Jun 02 12 - 1:44am
Seriously?

This is unspeakably vile. Since when is pedophilia acceptable? This creature needs to have her child taken away from her.

Jun 02 12 - 3:01am
A Father

"I know everybody loves a naked baby; I know children are inherently sexual; I know it's normal to be turned on by your infant."

You fucking weirdo.

Jun 02 12 - 4:17am
Disturbed

Pedophilia, 'nuff said. Of course, a mother can do no wrong...:eyeroll: This is neither normal nor acceptable. If you are engaged sexually and thinking of children as a stimulant, get yourself checked or eat lead.

Jun 02 12 - 10:16am
Yesyou

Incest is turning out to be the rule not the exception in modern society. Married women should be having the sexual relationships with their husbands not their children

Jun 02 12 - 2:05pm
I Need Brain Bleach!

This is proof that breastfeeding women only do it because they can get off on it. She could always pump her breasts and put the milk in a bottle and feed her infant in that manner. But then she wouldn't be getting her tits sucked, now would she? And what about these women who breastfeed their kids into toddler years and beyond? It's not about what's best for the child, it's about sexual stimulation for the mother. Masturbating while breastfeeding?!?! Using a vibrator while breastfeeding?!?!

This is beyond disgusting.

Jun 02 12 - 10:09pm
Arrest Christen!

This encapsulates the whole problem: "I want you to love me more than you love him, but I still want it to be okay for me to love him more than you."

Selfish, selfish woman. It's all about her. Now that she's found someone to love her unconditionally, she can push aside her husband. She yearns for sexual contact with her son and justifies it all by claiming it's the "normal" mother's love.

There's nothing "normal" about this. Her son will grow up not being able to do anything without his mother's involvement. She will destroy all his relationships because she can't bear for anyone to come between them. If this article is anything to predict from, her son will probably lose his virginity to his mother. It won't be along at all before she and her husband are divorced. As her son grows older, she will probably remarry and have more children in order to continue the perverse and pedophiliac tendencies (and she will profoundly disappointed if she ends up having a daughter).

There's no happy ending for this abomination of a family. Christen, you should be ashamed of yourself. And so should everyone else who has been praising this kiddie porn.

Jun 03 12 - 2:36pm
lela

I pity the future daughter in law. This will be like the 'Everyone Loves Raymond' mother in law scenario......where mom insists on butting into her son's life at every turn because she can't stand that her 'lover' was stolen away by some other woman. Icky. Just icky.

Jun 04 12 - 12:08am
Kristine

In the 1990s, I looked at advertising and cable TV shows, and became fearful that men were losing the ability to become sexually aroused by and love mature women, as opposed to adolescent girls. Now, I read the posts of "mommy bloggers," the narcissistic rants at EtiquetteHell and Mothering, and screeds like this, and am terrified that a whole generation of women have lost the ability to become sexually aroused by, and love, and seek true equality with, men, as opposed to their feminized, spoilt, snotty Little Lord Fauntleroys.

And I cannot relate to other women like these women. At all!

Jun 04 12 - 8:25am
chee

I cannot relate. i never saw my children as sexual. do children possess an innate sensuality ? yes but that is different from sexual. the tone of this greatly disturbs me. to masturbate with my child present would be unthinkable. to derive pleasure from your child is vastly different from deriving sexual gratification. i suspect marital problems are part of this syndrome.

Jun 04 12 - 3:19pm
And also...

Not to mention intense, overwhelming narcissism.

Jun 06 12 - 6:53pm
noneya

All of you should be locked up and kept away from children. Those thoughts ARE NOT normal. Anyone who thinks they are, is a pedophile.

Jul 27 12 - 4:23am
Jay

I am a man capable of breastfeeding and I cannot believe I never thought of this! Thanks Christen I'm going to jack off the next time I breastfeed Alison!

Jul 27 12 - 4:50am
A terrified teenager

After reading this, I honestly feel ill. I have some weird kinks, sure, but even gore porn hasn't disturbed me in such a way. I now know how the mind of a pedophile works, and it's incredibly obvious your new "fetish" is fuelled by your rampant desire to fuck everything that moves. I've even begun to question my own goddamn mother... How would I know if she had done things like that with me?

I'm going to try to forget I read this. I'm also going to adopt.

Jul 27 12 - 6:07am
Caitlyn

Everyone shut up. Its ok because shes a woman. if it were a man it would be different but women can do that.

Aug 23 12 - 7:54pm
son

I didn't raelize what was happening at the time, but now I find it a real turn on and am glad to have stimulated my mother in this way. I soon hope to penetrate her directly and show her how much I have grown!

Aug 24 12 - 2:08am
Seriously?

Has anyone arrested this heifer yet?

Sep 17 12 - 9:14pm
Bobby

Sexualising your children is a common thing around the world most all of u are brainwashed idiots and cant reason logically.

Did u know in New guenie that mothers constantly masturbate their infant boys openly. It's culturally acceptable behavior. They sleep nude with toddlers and engage them in sexual intercourse. This is common practice throughout asia and widespread in Japan They too, masturbate and have intercourse with their toddler sons. One japan mom said she screwed with her daddy till marriage and after she married and had children, a girl and 2 boys, she is having sex with all them U have heard all this scoffed at while u were growing up and became brainwashed silly. U falsley label adult/child sex as abuse when it is not if the child responds to the parents stimulation. Its response is its consent. Write in Topix Sex Forum and u will find out that parent young child incest is rampant. I think a parent should love its child enough to sexually train it rather than some selfish inexperienced kid do that. Would u want a school teacher teaching your children not knowing how much she knows. That would be utterly reckless. Wake up. If it is so bad, how come the asians haven't found it out. They think u are the idiots for having that kind if attitude.U wanna know why u haven't mentioned attitudes of the Asian people on such an issue. U full well know it would make u look stupid and brainwashed, that is the reason. And that's exactly what they think.