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August 4, 2009
My co-editor Jack says you can't wait to hand me my ass. 
 Jack is assuming I have an interest in your ass. Ha — maybe he was just trying to get my blood pumping. But I do think heels are a little fucked-up. Heels, like long nails, are a holdover from an era of fashion that was unconsciously designed to immobilize women.
And which era was that? Uh, "olden times"? Do you have a good grasp of the history? Am I already in over my head?
You're a turnip. Have you never seen a French-period porn film? Those poncy guys in the over-wigged Louis era were all flouncing about in heels... That's true. They were also designed to be immobilized because the leisure class could make it obvious that they didn't have to lift a finger in their damn lives.
Perhaps. Or, like men's wigs and women's gloves, heels were just another way to ornament the body. In that case it's akin to how it used to be considered attractive if you were really pale, because it meant you were wealthy, not a laborer. Today, laborers work inside, so it's attractive to be tan because it means you spend your time lounging by the pool.
Cue the '60s, when a tan meant you were jet-set and in Capri. I won't disagree that heels afford less mobility. But — and I grant that all fashion is on a continuum from more convenient to less convenient — heels are pretty extreme. They can really fuck up your body.
Eh. A tan can give you cancer. Playing football can give you concussion and brain damage. Sitting in an air-conditioned office for forty years fills your lungs with pathogens. Alcohol kills the liver. Pork skin clogs your arteries. I can stop now, right?
I take your point, but the fact is, alcohol is inherently fun to drink. And no one sits in an office for fun.
And heels are not fun to wear? And bacon is not fun to eat? They're fun to wear for the wrong reasons. It's fun to feel sexy. And feel that you look good.
And you find fault with that how exactly? I don't find fault with women for wearing them, I just think the subtext is a little fucked-up. Women get badgered so much by the culture about looking good.
And men get badgered about being tall and making money. We're all doomed. I won't argue with you there. But women have it worse: they're forced to either actively make a point of resisting beauty standards that are inconvenient and maybe unhealthy, or accept them. As a male, I'm grateful I don't have to make that choice (at least not as explicitly).
Women continue to earn two-thirds (or whatever embarrassing percent it is) of what men earn, have 1/10,000 the positions of power in governments, and you want to pity us because society (and by that I think you mean a dozen fashion magazines) "force" us to wear hells? (Heels, not hells, but I'll allow you to snigger at the Freudian typo.) Wouldn't dream of it. And, it's not pity, buddy, it's empathy.
Listen, in all seriousness, pity that my gender doesn't have access to power. Or, feel empathy, rather. (And I really disagree that men don't have to make choices about their dress, but let's table that for a second.) If women had had more access to power historically, they might not be obliged to wear heels. And I wouldn't under-weigh the impact that "a dozen fashion magazines" — but really the entire industry of female beauty, from media to manufacturing — has on the psyche. Men have to make choices about their dress, but those choices aren't nearly as extreme.
If you were talking to me about being thin, I wouldn't disagree with you as much. But heels — I swear, you just have the wrong target. Especially now. Women have never had more or better access to gorgeous flat shoes. My closet is full of them. This is an absolute shift in taste and trends in the past five years. I admit, that's news to me. Yet heels are still desired.
On some occasions. At the moment I'm wearing jeans. Wednesday, I wore heels and a dress to dinner. Thursday, I wore flats and a dress to a party. I picked what I wanted to wear based on my mood. Yes, and anyone who can negotiate the cultural obligations and feel happy and attractive and comfortable, more power to them. But you've got to admit, the subtext is a little perverse.
It's just not an argument for me. The subtext is that I want to feel attractive. That's what's perverse? But why does feeling attractive have to be so difficult? If you Google "how to walk in high heels," you get hundreds of thousands of results, because the damn things need an instruction manual.
Who says it's difficult? Might I suggest that if you Google "how to do a headstand," you'll get as many results. Well, women aren't obligated to headstand their way through fancy-dress occasions.
Don't be such a bozo. Women are NOT obligated to wear heels! I go to plenty of fancy-dress parties. I assure you, I never judge the women in flats. Well, not beyond thinking, "Those flats are pretty with that bubble skirt." Ha ha. That's progressive of you, but I think you're underestimating the internalized pressure.
I wear heels. Sometimes I wear flats. It depends on the dress, not on the internalized, soul-destroying pressure you think I feel. Yes. It's not that free will is entirely taken out of the equation. We all still have agency, but that agency is also compromised by external forces. What if formal menswear included wearing lead boots, and the ability to get around in lead boots were considered an indicator of masculinity? And I'm an unfashionable cat, I usually don't wear 'em. But then I go to a wedding, and everyone else will be wearing the damn things, and there I am shuffling around, and it would have been my CHOICE to wear convenient shoes —
Can I stop you? Because this is a load of crap. Fortunately, humankind's monkey brain was able to avoid that whole let's-put-men-in-lead-boots debacle. Because men were in charge.
You really think heels are the same thing as lead boots? How do you feel about mascara? I could do without it, but mascara doesn't make it any harder to do anything.
Heels make it a little harder to sprint to the train. I'll grant you that. But I can still get there with a brisk stride. Again, more power to you.
But you think I've internalized a false power?
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Commentarium (38 Comments)
Hmm, both of you are clearly smart and make good points, but if I had to declare a winner...I think I went in thinking heels were fine but Peter made me start to think twice. Guess I'd have to give him the slight nod. Overall, I don't think they are sexy or sexist.
pavia definitely won. also, that was hilarious.
Pavia and Pete both had some great points - but I still won't wear heels except on dire, fancy-dress occasions. They hurt my back too much. (Pavia, where do you get your actually comfortable heels? And can a working girl afford 'em?)
Uh, it's hard to take anyone seriously who'd attempt to argue with Pavia.
You guys really need to add a couple of Tony Ward photos to this debate. You should let Pavia edit this site for a month or two.
i mean, okay. debates about heels, or any other fetishized, normalized prosthesis (i'm looking at you, elective cosmetic surgery!) are going to have the same result: the person in favor is going to insist on its empowerment and their right to exert power in their decisions and if you don't agree then you ARE ACTUALLY THE OPPRESSOR BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND OMG, and the anti considers the subject of the debate ludicrous from the get-go and yeah, at that point the debate's already over.
i think the truth is, a lot of things are fucked up, and we still like them, and we still opt to do them every day. i don't think it helps any to relinquish intellectual complexity on the subject -broadly speaking, we don't just like things because we like them, we like them because we're told, implicitly or explicitly, that they have cultural value (i mean, the fashion industry pretty much thrives on that premise). that doesn't mean we can't or don't enjoy the things, but it doesn't hurt to be curious about why and how you make your choices, either.
I would read a debate about hair (pubic or otherwise) SO HARD. And then I would watch this and laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB6hVEP1QUU
I mean seriously, you want to debate whether something is fucked up. . .
Ha, this is great! I love heels, but I don't wear them that often. They do make me feel incredibly sexy. Only the really expensive ones are comfortable. And you do have to develop the right muscles before they're truly comfy.
Heels cause eventual joint disease, plantar fasciitis, ankle sprains, hindered mobility, etc. Just because you feel "comfy" in a pair doesn't mean that they're not adversly affecting your body mechanics. Degenerative joint disease can take decades before it's symptomatic.
Proponents of heels/make up/plastic surgery/etc always say that it's their decision, they want it, it makes them feel good, but they feel good because they're expecting to get the perks associated with increased attractiveness from society. The "it's just for me and me alone" argument is bunk. Just own up to being vain and playing into society's feedback based on silly, arbitrary requirements like an unnatural gait (think of footbinding in traditional china, those women were huge supporters of the practice when it was popular).
The heart of the debate should be to examine WHY heels make women feel sexy, not let someone in a debate argue that wearing them is ok because it makes them feel sexy.
As a man, just let me say this--heels are not sexy. Maybe you think they are, but personally (and I know a lot of my friends agree with me on this) I just think you look like a prostitute.
I think Pete wins the argument here in terms of logic/reason (heels are fucked up because society forces/strongly encourages women to do unhealthy things to their bodies in order to be attractive/successful women), and Pavia just wants to keep wearing heels, which is fine by me, but I don't think she made a very good case for it.
Props to NC and SA. I think that Pavia's argumental premise was fundamentally flawed. She was speaking primarily from a subjective personal viewpoint without using much factual information to support her statements.
PP - And the problem with looking like a prostitute would be ... ?
I think we should try to make it socially acceptable for *any* man to be able to wear heels, like they did in France in like the 1600s.
Well, I'm going with heels are evil. And it's not true that thing about 'having a choice' to wear heels or not to work. Some offices think 'no heels' are not a good business look, so they MAKE you (me) wear them, even if they hurt my back, just because they make you look 'professional' (I don't see any men in my office wearing heels to make them look professional)
I love heels. I don't wear them very often because I work on my feet all day and they aren't practical at all. I wear them out on occasion when I want to feel a little fancy. I don't wear make up ever and I don't really DO my hair beyond blow drying. For me heels are a way to feel a little girly.
Damn this was good.
And wow, do I want to sleep with Pete now.
As a woman who owns one pair of heels she never wears and never ever wears lipstick (for reasons outlined by Pavia), I agree 100% with Pete's argument. Although Pavia is very convincing, it doesn't change the facts that Pete outlines - women are socially conditioned to wear uncomfortable, unhealthy shoes because it makes them look (feel?) sexy.
I've never read so much horsesh*t from an obviously false modest pussy. Peter Smith, grow a pair.
pavia is basically argue that she waaaants to wear heels, which is fine, let her. but, it is plain ignorance or willfull blindness to deny the history of fashion used for subjugation and the forcing of uncomfortable and unrealistic standards and norms (including high heels) by the fashion industry on females. hopefully, yes, as informed female adults we can make our own decisions but as a young girl i was told through television and advertising and the womens magazines my mother read that attractive women wore heels (and face paint and expensive lingerie with matching expensive handbags) and it took a lot of years to figure out there were alternative ways to be attractive; most importantly by being comfortable with myself.
also, i want to sleep with pete.
I wear a kilt and the rest of evening dress for a ball because its the uniform for that group/cult of Scottish Country dances not because it is comfortable but to conform and look 'good'in tha group. Heels are the same
I love wearing heels because they're just pretty! I don't wear them too often only because I'm a librarian and have to gdig around on the shelves all day (which is also why I don't dress up at all for work). However, I love to dress up and wear heels when I can. I don't care as much how other people see me as I do how I see myself. Then again, I also like wearing corsets. I see it all as not so much us doing what men want, but us (or me) wearing what I know will make every man do whatever the hell I want.
What's next? The Little Black Dress?
Who is the man, and who is the Woman in this blah?
Pavia made no point at all beyond "let me wear my heels!" Note to Pavia: no one is stopping you. Negating the historical subjugation of woman through fashion is just myopic. Peter was arguing for this fact, Pavia just ignored it. I've never worn a comfortable pair of heels in my life- and yes, it makes it impossible to run (guess why some men like them so much. . . ) and impossible to stand for too long. It's not surprising to me that the editor of Daily Candy is making such classist remarks that comfortable heels are ubiquitous. I doubt she has to stand all day at her job.
The problem that I have with Pavia's participation in this discussion is that I don't think that she took it seriously. She was more about being 'cute', flippant, and sarcastic rather than addressing the issue at hand. Also, her AMAZING apparent ability to not feel uncomfortable in her heels is just ridiculous and undoubtedly not true. I have heard throughout my entire life from women about how much their heels are torturing them. To pretend otherwise is just argumentative and shows that Pavia is more interested in being a smartass than in discussing the matter as a mature adult. How many calouses do women have on their feet (and in how many strange places on their feet)? How many would they really have if they didn't constantly have to have them shaved off at their local mani/pedi? Now compare that to guys feet. There is no comparison. Why? Because women's shows really f!ck up their feet. Anyone who is clueless to the fact that heels are an outmoded, sexist 'trap' that men have ensnarled women in for decades is just fooling him/herself. Pavia, you should be ashamed of yourself for your failure to face the truth because you are yourself apparently so brainwashed by men's image of what women should be. Way to buy into it. Now why don't you just go barefoot and get your ass in the kitchen already. That seems to be the world that you believe in.
This is one stupid debate. I'll be damned if I allowed an idiot tell me that my choice in footwear is a sexist holdover repressing the advancement of my gender.If you like heels wear them, if you like flats wear them if you are so concerned about the speculative future health of your feet go damn bare foot. damn great grandma shoes. Cheap shoes of any heel height can cause foot problems. Shoes without backs to hold your foot in place probably cause more problems than a pair of well made heels.Peter completely disregards a females right to embrace her heritage. I assume he is not from the south. Just because women wore heals prior to the constitutional right to vote, does not mean that because I wear heals I appose equal rights under the law for all women. My culture is one of grace. When women acted like women. Being feminine is is a good thing. I will wear my favorite prada pumps to court tomorrow and feel good that I am a women. I am confident. I do not feel the need to act like a man to be equal to a man. I hope his birkenstock wearing wife or girlfriend leaves pete for the ladies softball coach.
You left out the inherent sexism of the fact that only women are expected to wear them.
Also: read Mary Daly's Gyn/Ecology for a nice deconstruction of heels.
Fun debate, though!
anything that is unhealthy--for anyone--i am against. heels fall into that category, pure and simple...it's all to make a woman look like an object...brought to you by western patriarchal culture. make-up's the same: who would want to wear lipstick everyday? it's got plenty of toxins in it--yuchh, i say! if i were a guy, i sure 'nuf wouldn't want to kiss lipstick-laden lips for the same reason!
i try to just look good, and sexy, in a more wholesome way. and the men i want to attract will probably respond.
also, just listen to john lennon and yoko ono's "Woman is the Nigger of the World"...they had it right even back in the 70's. the title was coined by yoko, by the way...
i don't understand how not only pavia and pete but all of the commenters have missed the most basic fact, which is that high heels make women "sexy" because they alter your posture. it makes you stick out your bum, and to counteract that you stick out your chest. it all comes down to t&a, not men liking high heels because they have a "can't run away" fetish. you can still argue whether or not it is exist, but the point is how they make a woman's body look--i don't think anyone really expects men to drool over footwear, aside from the fringe few.
Everyone saying how "if you like heels wear them, if you don't don't" is conveniently ignoring the fact that dress shoes for women - i.e. what I am supposed to wear with a suit at a business meeting - are almost 100% uncomfortable and not supportive of the foot - whether heels or flats. I HATE THIS. Why am I obliged to damage my body in order to be appropriately dressed for my job? Pavia's flippant "Heels are for parties" attitude completely overlooks the work dress code.
High Heels are for dancing and dinner parties... not every day use. I'm sick and tired of women who have horrible walks wearing them they aren't for everyone. If you already have a big ass heels may not be for you because it just makes it bigger. I have read that heels increase the pleasure of sex... so they can't be all bad! I am sick of tight pointy shoes and bunions open toes are so much more sexier. I hate hearing tap tap tap of heels going down the hallway. Think comfortable and quiet... not broken ankle (get some arch support and padding) Be happy with how tall you are and stop trying to add six inches - Humbug
Women in flat shoes walk like human beings. Women are female human beings. I fancy female human beings...particularly the ones who walk like human beings.
Walking through the City Of London I see a lot of women in high heels and they all look daft. Not just daft, but if I'm walking behind them I can see their akles wobbling through every step because of that tiny surface area at what there is of the sole of the heel. God knows what damage this is building up for future torture. Women in flats, particularly ballet flats, look SO much nicer because, yes, they walk like human beings and they just look comfortable. There is nothing sexy about an uncomfortable looking woman. And there is nothing inherently feminine about high heels and yet, in a photo shoot, or at a party, the women will almost invariably be in high heels. Don't tell me that none of those women feel some kind of peer pressure to wear heels for fear of looking and then feeling out of place. My wife came to our office christmas party a couple of years ago and accidentally left her party heels on the train. She felt embarrased and slightly out of place all evening because she didn't have her strappy heels on and yet she doesn't actually enjoy wearing them! This is absurd! Women in high heels just look so uncomfortable. Their feet look squashed. You can see some of the skin folded as the foot gets pushed down in to too small a space. The toees are bunched together. No wonder older women's feet look so mishapen. Heels make a woman's bum push out and so their breasts also push out to counter-balance? Perhaps, but I don't want to have sex with a systems of counter-weights. Nor do I want sex with someone who walks like a lame horse. Pavia's patronising head-in-the-sand attitude was just annoying. She repeatedly ignored, other than by her childish derision, Pete's main point about why women feel obliged to wear heels in certain situations. Yes women have a choice, but I bet most women would feel frumpy if they were in a social situation where the majority of the other women there were wearing heels if they'd attended in flats. That, I think, was Pete's main point. Flats rule. Heels just make the wearer look like they're trying to be something they're not. But, if a woman really WANTS to wear them, she should just go ahead and wear the stupid things...just so long as she really does just WANT to.
all I have to say is John Fluevog. The most comfortable shoe in the universe!!!
I have naturally high arches and am more comfortable in heels than in flats. Plus, I like the way they make me walk.
Honestly, the entire time I was agreeing with Pete. There are plenty of social implications that define the attire for women. It's great that -she- doesn't feel pressure to wear heels, but there are PLENTY of women who do. I feel pressure to wear heels when doing anything formal. Many people do not see flats as appropriate.
As a male, I've never understood why women publicly display masochistic tendencies, and cringe a little bit when I see high heels.
I found Pete to rather disingenuous in his rather limited but orthodox political correctness. Let's talk about the much greater damage to women and to men of the crap promoted in Nerve: vapid television shows, banal hollywood gossip, getting wasted and laid. When you guys grow the fuck up and work as seriously on your brains as you do at the gym (you know what I'm talking about), you will find LOTS to talk about that has real significance for human relations, our society, and our world. Who gives a fuck what you do with your pubic hair???
Brilliant and hilarious debate! The comments are pretty illuminating about the diversity of opinion and dare I say desire too.
The interesting thing is that no-one has mentioned the aggressive image of stiletto heels in particular. As a Brit I find this curious as there has been much written in Britain about the aggressive nature of the stiletto heel, the platform sole and the sharp long pointed toe. We have plenty of examples in our news stories over the past couple of decades where women and teenage girls have used their footwear to injure and maim both sexes and effectively castrate and even kill men. Articles in national newspapers have been written by women about the thrill of wearing heels that could actually kill others!
The old view of the stiletto as a thin fragile object that suggested that the woman it supported was feather light and dainty was soon dispelled back in the late 50's when the damage to floors, sidewalks and even aircraft floors became apparent. There is also the fact that in Britain during the 50's and 60's the vast majority of stiletto heels were always sold with steel tips to give good wear; a clicking steel tip does not equate with daintiness! One only had to see what happened at the end of every dance and party back then when the balloons were released from the ceiling; - the women would vie with each other to see how many balloons they could burst with their thin heels, with many ribald comments to the guys that they "had better watch out or else"! Thus in Britain heels may be seen as rather more empowering as a result.
On the subject of attraction, I would have to disagree that heels come a distant fifth, as for me and some other guys I know it is one of the first things we notice because of the noise they make; it makes us stop what we are doing and look! As to willingness to have sex coming before heels, I wouldn't have even got that far if the woman didn't wear heels; I've never had sex with one who didn't and I've had sex with a number who left them on! Like long nails in the back, stilettos in the back of the legs are the tigress' claws!
When I worked in the City (London's Wall Street) back in the eighties and early nineties we used to call the ambitious
Now you say something