How To Defeat A Homophobe On Facebook

This simple but eloquent and hard-hitting piece of work has been floating around the internet since yesterday afternoon, garnering head-nods from all free-thinking people.

It may not be the most precise way we've ever seen someone combat bigotry and homophobia, but not everyone can be shut up with a simple, "Actually, it's really natural and people are born gay. They can't help it. You can't help what you're attracted to -- it's called biology." 

Never mind, that kind of argument just leads to more arguments from the bigots. Just use Lacey's comeback.


Commentarium (63 Comments)

Jun 03 10 - 2:56pm

lovely. just lovely.

Jun 03 10 - 3:25pm

There's nothing like a social networking site to make people feel like they have immunity to mouth off about other people's life-style choices, identities, etc. Either that, or they do it at picnics. I heard someone quoting the bible at a picnic the other day in relation to the sin of homosexuality and I wish I had been able to challenge them the way this awesome pants person did. Bravo.

Jun 03 10 - 3:47pm

I read that as "homophone" — take that, Phasebook!

Jun 03 10 - 4:57pm

I see Lacey got Jesus' memo.

Jun 06 10 - 1:31pm

From the perspective of an MDiv degree holder (basically more biblical and other theology than you'd want to think about), the "clever", well-thought-out reply of Lacey's is 100% Oscar Meyer baloney. Yes, those things are direct scripture quotes, but they are obviously not researched. It may have been ~3000 years old, but there are New Testament references to homosexuality as well. I'm not a homophobe, and I don't mean to split hairs, but this is nowhere near a winning argument against closed-minded religious people. I've been around them too long. Do your homework, people! :)

Jun 06 10 - 2:06pm

In response to Mel, Agreed, I"ve argued with a lot of bible oriented individuals, and the common thread is - the old testament is for the people of Israel, and the new testament is for Christians.

Jun 06 10 - 2:40pm

Mel, what exactly do you mean when you say "Yes, those things are direct scripture quotes, but they are obviously not researched."? Perhaps you could phrase this thought differently? And as a MDiv degree holder, do you view the bible as the word of god, or just a time-scrambled collection of a culture's ideas at a given time in history? Because I think the main argument this person is making is that you can't pick and choose from the bible, if you are to view it as the "word of god", and if you take it all, you're basically insane.

Jun 06 10 - 2:47pm

shut up mel, you homophobe

Jun 06 10 - 4:16pm

First, it's a great argument that actually leaves out masturbation, also a stone-to-death crime, and sadly leaves out another historical fact. Those books were written by lawyers and priests of the early Jewish church, and not by "God" at all. "God" doesn't write anything on paper. The closest one can come to saying that the New Testament condemns homosexuality is Paul's writing, and he sure as heck didn't expect to be put in something called a "bible" or he wouldn't have invented so many lies as he did. His own words were that we didn't need the book, love was written in our hearts. for the other...that crap about being "born that way and can't change"?
FREE CHOICE is as valid a point as any for a person to warm up to another of their own gender.
Religion has done more harm to mankind than any millions of homosexuals could even dream of.

Jun 06 10 - 4:25pm

Manny, I do believe the bible as the word of God and that verses about homosexuality are in there. I don't, however believe that everyone can keep every commandment inside. God is love. Love does not equal voting in laws that take rights away from homosexuals. My point in even commenting on this story in the first place is because a vast majority of people on *both* sides of the issue lack a sound argument in either direction, and rely instead on pointed ad hominem (take juvenile Johnny's comment above for instance) and an audience who swallows what the loudest guy in their ideological camp says without a question.

Jun 06 10 - 5:20pm

When will you people realise there is no god ?

Jun 06 10 - 6:19pm

How does anyone know what god says/thinks about homosexuals? From what I've learned God is supposed to love everybody no matter what and that doesn't exclude just certain people. Now, when someone actually has a real conversation with God about his/her/it's views on gays, (or anything else that is considered "sinful") then you can come talk to me. Otherwise, who gives a shit? Mind your own damn business. I thought this was lovely, by the way.

Jun 06 10 - 6:53pm

So Mel, what is your sound argument for what you believe? What do you mean when you say that everyone can't keep every commandment? Would you make that same comment about murder or stealing? Is homosexuality a sin or not? You didn't say anything except to be critical of the initial argument. I'm assuming that if you don't think either side has a sound argument that must mean that you do. Let's hear it. If you already said it, I'm not buying.

The Bible is a human book written by ancient people trying to make sense out of good and evil and the role of a supernatural presence in the world. Even the NT references to homosexuality fall in the category of the opinion of the culture. if you are going to hang onto the Biblical view of homosexuality you also need to adhere to women as property and slavery and racism. It's all there too.

Jun 06 10 - 7:22pm

absolutely one one of the best arguments ive heard for this subject. good job shoving the bible in her face!

Jun 06 10 - 7:23pm

Mel, I think when you were answering to Manny, you meant me? I was the one who wrote what you replied to. Anyways, I'm glad you value "love" and aren't interested in hate or ad hominem attacks. But I feel that what the original post-reply (on facebook) was getting at IS a sound argument. That being, when you take The Bible (Old and New Testaments) as being "The Word Of God", you can't pick and choose what you will or will not accept. Unless, of course, you want to deliberately disobey what you believe to be the ultimate power in the universe.

Jun 06 10 - 8:43pm

People who don't understand Christianity are correct to criticize an apparent willingness in its followers to accept certain things in the bible and not others. However, the inconsistency is not hypocrisy at all. No one in Christianity expects themselves to keep every commandment in the bible, so something like Lacey's post is going to be meaningless, especially since it's coming from someone who isn't willing to research the scripture they're quoting, much less someone who doesn't believe and embrace it. To whoever asks what my sound argument is, I don't have an argument, and I never presented myself as someone who wants to be challenged to give one. You're on the Internet, I don't know you, I will never meet you, and you don't matter to me. The only people who do are my gay friends and colleagues, and fellow Christians who have trouble seeing homosexuals in the proper light. :)

Jun 06 10 - 8:45pm

Mel, I'd be interested to hear how a theologist deals with the "picking and choosing" argument. Context included, there are some crazy things said in both the new and old testament. How do you ignore the crazy things while accepting the good things and pretend you're doing anything but making up your own mind and ignoring some of your god's advice?

Jun 06 10 - 8:50pm

By the way, let's give Mel some credit for:
"God is love. Love does not equal voting in laws that take rights away from homosexuals."
If everyone interpreted the bible like that we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Jun 06 10 - 9:25pm

It's just too bad that most assholes that hug the Bible to sleep only use it to justify their moral superiority.

Jun 06 10 - 11:34pm

Mel, you say that no Christian expects themselves to live up to all the rules in the Bible, but that isn't saying anything about their feelings regarding the rules. Are all of them still meaningful? And when you say that Lacey's post is now "meaningless" or "baloney", because she doesn't understand this "follow-the-rules-but-not-all-of-them" mentality, you're basically shunning anyone outside your Christian system. Can no one but Christians question Christianity? She's obviously willing to research the scripture, as she's quoting it. How, in your opinion, can one "understand" Christianity, so as to be allowed to critique it?

Jun 07 10 - 2:10am

"They've pretty much proven homophobia is caused by people being closet gay."

This has ceased homophobic comments in close to 100% of people I've tried it on.

Jun 07 10 - 5:22pm

To Mel,

Don't you think that because people on both sides lack information and sound argument (as you say) that it perhaps suggests something? How can one really, call themselves a Christian if you are realistically unfamiliar with the true, exact wording of the bible? They may act morally and with good intentions, injecting Christian doctrine into their attitude, etc. but what material are they relying on to support their faith?

I think in reality it is best to distance yourself from a script that is slowly loosing force in society. Perhaps the Bible deserves a standing ovation for informing/brainwashing/teaching (however an individual may perceive it) for thousands of years yet I think it is passé and absurd to argue over the 'words' of an alleged invisible 'force' in 'heaven' anyway.

Jun 07 10 - 7:16pm

To Mel, I just wanted to point out that you said that no christian expects themselves to keep every commandment in the bible. If that is so, why do they judge so very harshly on others who, like them, don't keep every commandment from the bible? That leads me to believe that many (but surely not all) christians use the bible to, as someone said above, justify their own moral superiority. That being said, I also want to give you props for being the kind of christian who actually seems to understand what is meant by 'God is love', and Jesus' message to love everyone. :)

Jun 08 10 - 11:15am

love. don't judge. treat others as you would like to be treated. show compassion. help others who need it. hatred and bigotry (on any "side") is such a waste of spirit...

Jun 08 10 - 11:28am

Sorry Mel, as a former theology student, I'm going to have to disagree with you.
You are doing what a large number of Christians do nowadays. They take the bible and bend it to fit the modern morals that they have. They can see and feel that homophobia is wrong, but the Bible is not against it.
The bigots pick and choose for hate and even though I'm glad you pick and choose for love, both are very much in the Bible.
You seem like a good guy Mel, maybe one day you'll see that you don't need a book to prove it. Christianity is far from being the first or only religion to say "love one another" or "be nice" it is part of our social nature to support that.
You don't need the crutch... you are barely leaning on it anyway.

Jun 08 10 - 3:32pm

It seems to me that It's not only Christians that pick and choose from the Bible, or any other source of information for that matter. Written by humans, read by humans. Nobody is perfect.

Jun 08 10 - 10:46pm
Pop Culture Blows

Christianity is nothing more than the biggest, most successful cult in all of recorded history. If you saw some dude on a street corner today, ranting about how he was the son of God and turned water into wine and was going to die for your sins you'd think he was a loony. So why do you people believe some claptrap that was written thousands of years ago?

Never forget that all the religions that came before were proven wrong; yours will be too, eventually.

Jun 09 10 - 2:34am

Matty the former theology student sounds like he slept through most of his theology lectures. Poser...

Jun 09 10 - 2:36am
Pop Culture Blows

On second though atheism hasn't done much for people other than drive them to suicide, drugs, and self loathing. The world is much better with the concept of God in it, and the Christian God is a lot better than Allah. Buddha is a fucking turtle now or something, as he wasn't a God.

Jun 09 10 - 2:39am

Yeah HAHA when shit hits the fan everyone prays, even the atheists are like "Put a word in for me yo."

Jun 09 10 - 12:21pm
Pop Culture Blows

That second post was not me... None of that is even vaguely true, much less my view on it. Shame on you, jackhole, for doppelganging me. Cunt.

Jun 09 10 - 11:25pm
You Don't Know Shit

The Christian God, the Jew God and the Muslim God are the same God, you fucking asshat. Learn the subject matter before you post, fuckface.

Jun 10 10 - 8:18pm
Liquid Winter

Yahweh made humans perfect in Eden. He gave Adam and Eve to each other as stated in Genesis. That was his original purpose for all of mankind. When Adam and Eve rebelled by disobeying and failing the Creator's simple test of their loyalty, they were cursed with imperfection which caused them to grow old and die instead of enjoying everlasting life. The tempter of Eve was not the serpent which could not talk, but instead Satan the devil, a rebellious Cherub who was created good and powerful, but who decided to rebel against his maker because of treachery that grew in his heart of his own accord. This would-be god of a Cherub began to think too much of himself and his beauty and splendor. He became prideful and haughty. He began to envy the Creator and what He had. The praise Yahweh received for his many grand works of creation. The position of sovereignty He had. The Cherub who became Satan coveted what Yahweh had and began to hate him, his own Creator, his own father. He then decided to get a slice of the 'pie' himself and try to turn away Yahweh's creation from Him. The Cherub wanted to alienate the Creator's earthly children from him and become their dominating ruler. He tempted Eve to eat the fruit that was not for her by using a serpent as a puppet. He knew that Adam probably wouldn't defect on his own but that if he could corrupt Eve then he could probably corrupt Adam through her. Satan now rules this superficial, licentious, and unapologetically corrupt world. This world is meant to blind our eyes to the truth of what reality is, what truth is, what morality is, what is natural, what is unnatural, the validity of cause and effect in our actions, the importance of caring for other human beings in a genuinely unselfish and non-exploitative way that manifests itself in all our actions and their corresponding consequences. Satan wants us to be blind to the fact that Yahweh made the universe and that the universe works a certain way on both the macro and micro levels and that if we disregard what is natural according to these creative laws of what was meant to be, we are not doing what we were born to do. We are instead doing what our epigenetically inherited imperfection moves us to do. We have chemical imbalances (including neuro-chemical imbalances) which very from person to person and that we very well may have been born with. These unnatural things that we may feel do not sum up the extent of what is natural for us. They simply show how much physical imperfection has helped us to drift further and further away from what our Creator, Yahweh, intended for us as human beings made in His image (that is to say in the sense of our intangible qualities as intelligent beings with the capacity for creativity and logic and feelings). It makes sense that if this degraded world is the product of Satan's works than the things that are most genuinely promoted within it in the way of moral standards must be the opposite of what our Creator intended. So it is that when we do something that is opposed to what we were created to do or be, then we are not doing what is natural, but instead, what our imperfection inclines us to do by means of our unreliable, treacherous hearts. What is natural is the same as what is best for us. What we mostly desire is Not what is best for us but simply what we want. We give up eternal life on earth in the future for temporary, unnatural enjoyment. That is not a good trade-off. That is doing the devil's will and he is why we are in this whole mess in the first place.

Jun 10 10 - 9:32pm

I'm nowhere near a theology student, but I kind of get the feeling that Mel was trying to say that it's theologically incorrect to try to convince (certain) Christians that homophobia-as-sin using Leviticus (Old Testament) is illogical. As far as I can tell, this is because most Christians do not believe the laws of the Old Testament are binding upon them (Luke). It is the New Testament which is binding, and this also contains passages which state that homosexuality is wrong (I think in Romans?).

This is nowhere near what I believe (I'm not Christian), but if this is the argument he was trying to make, then I fully agree with him.

Jun 10 10 - 10:06pm
Liquid Winter

I would not do the churches of Christendom the honor of calling them Christian. They are just a bunch of counterfeit pretenders that are also part of Satan's world and who prove to be hypocrites by their works and who are just another way of slandering the Creator and his word by their very actions thereby alienating people from the truth.

Jun 10 10 - 10:22pm
Liquid Winter

Notice how many child molesting homosexual priests exist within the church? And, furthermore, how these organizations have tried to cover it up, even bribing people to achieve this result? Is that proof of their loyalty to Yahweh? The real servants of the Creator are those who prove themselves to be so by their actions, and they are not one with corrupt organizations. They are one people united and separate from the church. One organization under the Theocratic government arrangement of our Creator. They do search for sheep among the world. People who are sick of this world and who wish to be one with what is natural according to the original purpose for mankind. They will rejoice when this evil and corrupt system goes down in flames at Armageddon by Yahweh's decree at the hands of his son the Archangel who is the Christ Jesus when he comes invisibly descending upon the clouds with his vast armies of angels for salvation of the innocent and faithful and total annihilation of the hurtful, the wicked, the apathetic, the loveless, the ones degraded in their morals (including those would-be servants of our Creator in Christendom who are actually servants of Yahweh's archenemy Satan).

Jun 10 10 - 10:40pm
Liquid Winter

It is interesting that even people in Christendom who believe that the Holy Scriptures are in fact the word of the Almighty Creator do not choose to believe that the passages involving prohibition of homosexuality are inspired by Yahweh or valid at all for that matter. It is all too convenient. If someone wants to do something that the Bible says they shouldn't they just say that the particular scripture which condemns their desires and preferred actions is not actually inspired word. So, they just basically pick and choose what they want to believe, do, and acknowledge as the word of Yahweh without any proof to substantiate their selfish claim of invalidity concerning the scripture which they simply do not wish to act in harmony with!

Jun 10 10 - 11:00pm
Liquid Winter

Many forces in the universe are invisible. It is folly to invalidate the existence of something just because you have never seen it. If that were logical than we would have to refute some of the invisible discoveries of science as elaborate hoaxes because of the fact that we have never actually seen such invisible forces. That is indeed a crucial mistake!

Jun 10 10 - 11:39pm
Liquid Winter

The Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures or Old Testament is not outdated in the sense that it still has lessons for us in the modern day concerning wise actions and their good consequences verses unwise actions and their bad consequences (relevant given the fact that human tendency in general hasn't changed). The "Old Testament" tells of the beginning of things in the earth and so on. There are also principles held therein that still apply today, and they are too numerous to mention. The old law covenant was completely done away with as formal law with the death of Jesus on a Roman torture stake (the mode for execution of many criminals at the time). All the temporary sacrifices of the Old Law Covenant were leading up to Jesus and his ultimate and permanently effective sacrifice for all of mankind. There is still usefulness in studying the accounts recorded in the "Old Testament". But it is true that the New Law Covenant came with Jesus and was solidified by his sacrificial death. The so called New Law Covenant was based upon the merits of Jesus perfect sacrifice and was to be a matter of the law being "written in their hearts" instead of it being a strict formal law and ridged tradition that was handed down and enforced in a prompt and carnal fashion. This does not mean that the new law did not have to be heeded by the first century Christians and those who came after them. It simply meant that it was more about heartfelt adherence than strict and brutally enforced law and tradition. It is true that the "New Testament" was specifically meant for Christians in the first century of the common era and thereafter. It is also true that the Old Law Covenant was done away with and that God's Covenant with the Hebrew people was no longer valid with the coming of Christianity. The Jews, not as individuals but as a nation in its majority, rejected Jesus as the Christ or promised Messiah and even cooperated with the corrupt Jewish religious leader's mongering for Jesus to be executed. Because of this rejection of Yahweh's son, the Creator was moved to finally reject the nation as a whole. But this did not include individual Jews which wanted to become Christians and did so. Yahweh (or Jehovah in the Anglo Saxon) decided to take a people for his name out of all the nations. First starting with the preaching work directed toward the wayward Jewish nation and then toward the surrounding nations. That preaching work has been continued in our day by genuine, modern day Christians.

Jun 11 10 - 12:00am
I saw Jesus

Girls bleed from there vagina.. that what i would say to this guy.

Jun 11 10 - 1:17pm
Liquid Winter

This is a product of the lining of the Uterus liquefying and falling away each month. What is this comment in response to?

Jun 11 10 - 1:44pm
Liquid Winter

Really? Love everyone? Love serial killers. Love child molesters (including the homosexual priests)? Love manipulative sociopaths? You know the kind that start up cults. Love lying, greedy, and corrupt politicians and business men? Love lying sluts or rakes who go around seducing nearly every man or woman they come into contact with, deceiving people about not having diseases, and spreading their pestilence among the masses?

Jun 11 10 - 3:59pm
The Mighty CBM

As a self-identified Christian, a few things: (1) Liquid dude, pedophilia is a separate phenomenon from homosexuality. Homosexuals prefer sexual partners of the same sex, pedophiles prefer sexual partners who are not mature. A pedophile is a pedophile, not a gay or straight pedophile. (2) Same dude, yes, love everyone. God loved the world (John 3:16) + we love because He loved = love everyone. That doesn't mean excuse their behavior. There's a difference. Love their victims, too, and protect them. (3) Yeah, it's in Romans. There are a handful of other references in the New Testament as well. Jesus didn't discuss it once, although he did mention that God hates divorce. (4) Relative to other topics, homosexuality is barely touched on in the Bible, old testament or new. Helping the poor, being hospitable, avoiding greed and pride, and protecting children are all discussed easily ten times as often as sexual sin, let alone homosexuality specifically. I am a literalist who has come to the conclusion that if homosexuality is a sin, it's not one God chose to hammer relative to the others. The fact that the U.S. church's priorities are so far off of God's bugs me. But then again, if they started talking about pride or greed or honoring your parents or spouse, then they might have to look at themselves. And they don't want that.

Jun 11 10 - 4:27pm
Liquid Winter

I believe that a man sodomizing little boys is, in fact, gay.

Jun 11 10 - 4:30pm
Liquid Winter

Many people in places of responsibility in Christendom's denominations are gays or closeted gays.

Jun 11 10 - 4:57pm
Liquid Winter

I believe that the love that you are referring to is called Agape'. It is a love based on principle and entails the respect and consideration that we should genuinely exhibit toward all human beings. It does not mean that we should approve of or even fundamentally except what people may choose to do if it is not in harmony with higher moral standards and universal principles. That means that people that are against homosexuality do not necessarily bare prejudice toward those people as individual human beings, but instead, toward homosexuality and lesbianism as practices. This is not the same as being against people of African decent. It is a deceptive thing that gays and lesbians and proponents of these practices try to make such dubious comparisons.

Jun 11 10 - 5:15pm
Liquid Winter

Some pedophiles who are men will only have sex with little boys. Is this gender preference NOT gay?

Jun 11 10 - 5:54pm
Liquid Winter

There are different kinds of love as indicated in the Greek language which was used to write the Cristian-Greek Scriptures or "New Testament". There is:

Agape: A love based on higher principles of what is right and entailing how we should rightfully treat others according to excelling standards of respect, dignity, compassion, mercy, empathy, sympathy, unselfishness and overall consideration for others. It is a love that involves an affection for other human beings; for humanity as a whole and for individuals. It is supposed to be unconditional and fundamental.

Philia: Friendship (including close/intimate friendship), brotherly love, brotherhood, a general non-sexual love in a relationship.

Storge: Family love or natural affection.

Eros: Sexual, amorous, erotic love.

Jun 11 10 - 9:29pm
Liquid Winter

Genesis 1:27, 28
27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

Genesis 2:23, 24
23 Then the man said:
“This is at last bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh.
This one will be called Woman,
Because from man this one was taken.”
24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.

Leviticus 18:22
22 “‘And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.

Leviticus 20:13
13 “‘And when a man lies down with a male the same as one lies down with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing. They should be put to death without fail. Their own blood is upon them.

Deuteronomy 23:17, 18
17 “None of the daughters of Israel may become a temple prostitute, neither may anyone of the sons of Israel become a temple prostitute. 18 You must not bring the hire of a harlot or the price of a dog into the house of Jehovah your God for any vow, because they are something detestable to Jehovah your God, even both of them.

1 Kings 14:24
24 And even the male temple prostitute proved to be in the land. They acted according to all the detestable things of the nations whom Jehovah had driven out from before the sons of Israel.

Malachi 3:5,6
5 “And I will come near to YOU people for the judgment, and I will become a speedy witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against those swearing falsely, and against those acting fraudulently with the wages of a wage worker, with [the] widow and with [the] fatherless boy, and those turning away the alien resident, while they have not feared me,” Jehovah of armies has said.
6 “For I am Jehovah; I have not changed.

Acts 15:19-20
19 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Romans 1:24-28
24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error. 28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting,

Romans 6:12-16
12 Therefore do not let sin continue to rule as king in YOUR mortal bodies that YOU should obey their desires. 13 Neither go on presenting YOUR members to sin as weapons of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, also YOUR members to God as weapons of righteousness. 14 or sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness.
15 What follows? Shall we commit a sin because we are not under law but under undeserved kindness? Never may that happen! 16 Do YOU not know that if YOU keep presenting yourselves to anyone as slaves to obey him, YOU are slaves of him because YOU obey him, either of sin with death in view or of obedience with righteousness in view?

Romans 12:9
9 Let [YOUR] love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked, cling to what is good.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
5 Actually fornication is reported among YOU, and such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain [man] has of [his] father. 2 And are YOU puffed up, and did YOU not rather mourn, in order that the man that committed this deed should be taken away from YOUR midst? 3 I for one, although absent in body but present in spirit, have certainly judged already, as if I were present, the man who has worked in such a way as this, 4 that in the name of our Lord Jesus, when YOU are gathered together, also my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 YOU hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:15-20
15 Do YOU not know that YOUR bodies are members of Christ? Shall I, then, take the members of the Christ away and make them members of a harlot? Never may that happen! 16 What! Do YOU not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body? For, “The two,” says he, “will be one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee from fornication. Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but he that practices fornication is sinning against his own body. 19 What! Do YOU not know that the body of YOU people is [the] temple of the holy spirit within YOU, which YOU have from God? Also, YOU do not belong to yourselves, 20 or YOU were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in the body of YOU people.

1 Corinthians 7:36
36 But if anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virginity, if that is past the bloom of youth, and this is the way it should take place, let him do what he wants; he does not sin. Let them marry.

2 Corinthians 12:21
21 Perhaps, when I come again, my God might humiliate me among YOU, and I might mourn over many of those who formerly sinned but have not repented over their uncleanness and fornication and loose conduct that they have practiced.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.

Ephesians 5:3
3 Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among YOU, just as it befits holy people

Philippians 4:8
8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well spoken of, whatever virtue there is and whatever praiseworthy thing there is, continue considering these things.

Colossians 3:5
5 Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

1 Thessalonians 4:5
3 For this is what God wills, the sanctifying of YOU, that YOU abstain from fornication; 4 that each one of YOU should know how to get possession of his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in covetous sexual appetite such as also those nations have which do not know God;

1 Timothy 1:8-11
8 Now we know that the Law is fine provided one handles it lawfully 9 in the knowledge of this fact, that law is promulgated, not for a righteous man, but for persons lawless and unruly, ungodly and sinners, lacking loving-kindness, and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers, 10 fornicators, men who lie with males, kidnappers, liars, false swearers, and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful teaching 11 according to the glorious good news of the happy God, with which I was entrusted.

Jude 3-7
3 Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write YOU about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write YOU to exhort YOU to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. 4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 I desire to remind YOU, despite YOUR knowing all things once for all time, that Jehovah, although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith. 6 And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 So too Sod′om and Go·mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

Revelation 2:14-16
14 “‘Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those holding fast the teaching of Ba′laam, who went teaching Ba′lak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication. 15 So you, also, have those holding fast the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·la′us likewise. 16 Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.

A “Fitting Wage”
♦ The findings of two researchers, themselves homosexuals, who studied the incidence of VD in “gay” baths were recently published in the American Journal of Public Health. They found that the patrons of the Denver bath that they investigated had one chance in three of contacting VD carriers. They were 2.5 times as likely to have gonorrhea as comparably promiscuous heterosexual men and 40 to 50 times as likely as the general local population.
Meanwhile, a Journal of the American Medical Association editorial pointed out that the “vulnerability of the homosexual to diseases that are sexually transmitted but are not generally categorized as venereal . . . is becoming increasingly apparent.” The nature of homosexual acts open “risks of exposure to enteric pathogens [intestinal germs],” says the editorial. “It is thus not surprising that homosexual men have been reported to contract giardiasis, shigellosis, and amebiasis in areas where these diseases are not endemic [native to the region].”
Surely when “males behave indecently with males,” they are “paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversion.”—Rom. 1:27, The New English Bible.

Jun 12 10 - 7:07pm

@Liquid Winter: You can't use STD statistics from gay baths and compare them with general contraction rates to say homosexuality is inherently wrong. That's horrendous use of statistics and supporting evidence. You can say that homosexuals who use gay baths are more likely than the general population to contract STDs. You then have to acknowledge that not all homosexuals use gay baths, and therefore a (fairly large) proportion of gays people are equally as likely as the general population to contract STDs.

Just as proportions of the straight population who are swingers, adulterers, use prostitutes, or are otherwise non-monogamous are more likely to contract STDs than the general population. I can think of several prominent conservative Christian men - who claim to be 'straight' - who fit into each of those categories.

Jun 12 10 - 10:31pm
Liquid Winter

Christian men? Did you not read what the Scripture Quotes said? How are they Christian men? If that sort of behavior brings about those consequences as a common thing then why is all of it NOT morally wrong?

Jun 12 10 - 10:45pm
Liquid Winter

The first source on "gay baths" was from "the American Journal of Public Health". The second source was not about "gay baths" and was from "a Journal of the American Medical Association editorial". But of course you were talking about the statistics...

Jun 12 10 - 10:53pm
Liquid Winter

"One chance in three of contacting VD carriers"? I suppose that they were talking about inanimate objects at the "gay baths" and not any actual "gay males" that have lives outside of the gay baths. Or maybe they meant only "gay males" who live at the "gay baths" (laughs). If they had a one in three chance then that implies one in three gays or, at the very least, a large and common number of them at any rate.

Jun 12 10 - 11:26pm

if it is not about the designs of nature and the consequences a certain kind of action has and the reality of things in themselves then what actually defines whether a particular action is right or a particular action is wrong? There must be criteria for such conclusions and their must be answers. I choose cause and effect and the designs of nature as my evidence. There is nothing stronger than solid tangible fact when attempting to foil the reasoning of a certifiable fool. But certifiable fools rarely allow such things to dissuade them from their close-mindedly biased opinions.

Jun 15 10 - 12:32pm

As usual, people are using a Xian version of Torah to discuss how horrible Torah is. Wonderful. Allow me to set you all... straight (as it were): Torah says NOTHING about "homosexuality". It discusses male anal intercourse, which is - as ALL things Judaism condemns - just an ACT, NOT a "way people are."

Jun 16 10 - 10:41am

Terrible strategy.

A) Jews don't interpret the Bible literally. That's why they have the Talmud and other commentaries. You can't understand one without the other. Christians also don't interpret the "Old Testament" literally. Muslims obviously use the Koran.

B) There are atheists who believe homosexuality is immoral.

C) Why is it wrong for religious people to judge homosexuals, but OK for homosexuals and others to judge religious people for their beliefs?

D) If people are "born homosexual," what are we to make of bi-sexuals? Or transsexuals?

Jun 21 10 - 5:49pm
Liquid Winter

Even if a person were born with a predisposition toward homosexuality this does not automatically make it natural. For example, one may be born with a predisposition to some sort of other neurochemical imbalance such as a mental imbalance or psychiatric disorder (including schizophrenia or bipolar disorder or hyper-sexuality disorder). The fact that one may be born with these things does NOT make them natural instead of defects in the individual. A defect is a defect whether or not we are born with it or not. And nature is supposed to lead to improvements and innovations because of "survival of the fittest" and other such "evolutionary" principles. So why should we (ass)ume that something is natural just because we might have been born with it? Can we really say by way of the facts that our Creator intended for us to be gay? Any of us? Has not our epigenetically inherited curse of imperfection from the first two human parents effected the outcome of what many of us have been born with? Do we not get sick, experience pain and suffering, grow old, and die; even though we have the brain capacity in terms of storage and capability to exist forever? Is this natural? Was this our Creators original purpose? Are we meant to do the wrong thing even though we are expected to do the right thing? Did not the sacrifice of Yahweh's son happen for a reason? Was it not for the sake of a long term purpose of future redemption from all of this; our otherwise doomed situation as humans on this earth? Do you not think that our Creator still has the same purpose if he has not changed as he indicates in his word the Bible? Even if merely for his own sake and his own ultimate reputation, would it not make Him look extremely bad and be in His own worst interests if He did not fix things for humankind, exonerate himself from Satanic slander, and ultimately regain complete control? It is for his glory and the benefit of all mankind that his purpose will be fulfilled is it not? He can work in subtlety and secrecy and is even more capable of this than Satan his Arch Enemy as well as being far more powerful, is he not? Would his creation exceed his own capabilities? Has he not set boundaries? Does he not wish all who could be faithful to live and does he not thus wish the world wide preaching work to finish to complete satisfaction so that all men and woman may get the message, and if faithful in mind, heart ,and deeds, actually attain to complete salvation at Armageddon when all others who do not listen do perish in fire? In light of all of this, how can he allow the present situation to continue eternally? Is not one day as a thousand years with Him? Are not his purposes accomplished on a wider scale of time? Have we not Witnessed this in his word the Bible? Is it simply because of our selfishness and cynical despair as well as our own earthly "time table" that we do feel that he shall do nothing? Did he not bring the flood in Noah's day because of the corruption in that time and did not the people of that time actually say that 'things had gone on as they had and thus there was no reason to believe that they would change'? Is this way of thinking logical? Can not even a nation go on and stay strong for centuries and yet fall in a relatively short period of time? Do we not live in the "lowest point" of all human history and have we not seen things that are terrible which have never before been seen in the earth in terms of change and is not now a time when catastrophes of all kinds are more numerous then they have been in number and magnitude than in all of human history? Can we not see how we, as a collective human society, could be on the verge of a terminal downward spiral and ultimate collapse? Does not the Bible speak of the sign of the end of the present system of things? A collective prophecy in which we should see the verge of the great tribulation of Revelation that is to be followed by Armageddon? Did not Jesus prophecy this? Did not he worn of this time when he stated the following words: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come". There is no reason to believe that our Creator intends to indefinitely allow unnatural things that we are born with to continue beyond the time when the "former things" will be done away with. So, in light of this, why should we continue to embrace those things that our unnatural for us right down to the time of them being done away with? Could we not indeed, for our stubbornness and carnal selfishness, actually end up being done away with right alongside these unnatural things because of our will to cling to them? Why then would we want to hold on to such temporary things and thus lose out on the hope for eternal life that Adam and Eve once had? Are not the infinite possibilities and the deeper intended purpose for us greater than the transitory things which we now posses? What is more important; sticking our penises in each others bacterial fecal matter or being able to learn and do things that push the very limits of our imagination and enjoy ourselves in ways and to degrees that we have never experienced before? Are not fleeting bouts of chemical enamorment transitory? So many people experience the chemical feeling of a crush or an infatuation with someone. Do these things mean anything? Will it last forever? Of what significance or relevance are such meager things, especially in contrast to our potential as eternal humans with perfect lives?

Jun 21 10 - 6:17pm
Liquid Winter

People often times Choose to be "just the way they are" and thus have no one else to blame for the way they are besides themselves. On the other hand, some individuals have chemical attractions that are very hard to fight to the point that they may assume that it is all natural for them. It is true though that they can still fight these unnatural tendencies. What are they doing if they do not fight them? Are they not simply choosing the path of least resistance for themselves? Are they not doing what is unnatural for the sake of alleviating personal inconvenience? Remember, the Devil challenged the Creator respecting Job and, effectively, all of mankind. His argument was that mankind would only be faithful in their deeds during times of personal convenience and that humans would abandon the most morally upright course and thus their Creator as well if it became inconvenient to do the right thing and remain physically faithful in their life course. So, we would be proving the devil right if we did not fight such tendencies and thus be saying that we only do things for Yahweh when it is convenient for us. How does this express love? Is it not a selfish and inconsiderate thing?

Jun 21 10 - 6:24pm
Liquid Winter

Moral standards concerning what is right are not subjective. A person's own beliefs do not define what is right and what is wrong, these things simply are. And thus it is that we must respect the universal laws of what should be for we cannot define them and we certainly cannot change them.

Jun 21 10 - 6:43pm
Liquid Winter

Denial as well as rejection of these laws is to the determent of others as well as ourselves; to one extent or another this is true concerning the choices that we and others make as well as the actions that we cause to occur based on these former choices. In tern, the subsequent consequences that arise correspond to the actions that we do choose to make real. These consequences, the result of our actions, are something that we have a, perhaps unspoken, accountability for. We are responsible for our own actions and, furthermore, we have no right to infringe on the world around us and especially not upon our own fellow man or woman or child. Our choices, no matter how seemingly trivial, should not be subject to our own preferential selfishness. Deliberate obliviousness to these things is a sin and an insult against the very universe itself.

Jun 29 10 - 5:06pm

What do you think?

Jul 01 10 - 12:59am
Liquid Winter

spell checking error--> *detriment